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The Internet is Destroying the LDS Church

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  • #16
    Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
    I will admit the LDS Church has done a HORRIBLE job at responding to issues that people have raised up over the years. I think the attitude has been if something is just ignored it will go away or people will just forget about it. I have read a lot of anti-Mormon material in my life. Much on the internet. I have read through James White "Letters to Mormon Elder". Marvin Cowan "Mormon claims answered, Walter Martin "Kingdom of the Cults" section on the LDS Church. I have read through much of the Tanners "The Changing World of Mormonism" and plenty of other articles whether it be from Matthew Slick to Bill Mckeever. Suffice to say, I pretty much have heard it all. My faith has been made stronger by not avoiding the issues but taking them head on.

    I wish the LDS Church would have a class on anti-Mormonism. Have an alternative class during Sunday school where members deal with a topic each week and study through it. Have a comprehensive lesson manual or DVD set that goes through all the issues. It would make good family home evening lessons. Have classes at BYU dedicated to Anti-Mormonism. Just educate the members. If my son goes on a mission, I will be sure to go through an Anti-Mormon book, paragraph by paragraph so he knows the issues and how to respond to the issues presented. I can't get the Church to defend itself as it seems to like having rocks throw at it and passively does nothing but I can do some things in my very small sphere of influence with my family.
    "Anti, Anti, Anti!!"

    The whole concept of "anti-mormonism" shows how paranoid the LDS church is.

    After all, we don't call atheism "anti-christianism" as if their sole existence was to attack our religion. No, we call them "unsaved" - meaning that they need our help to find God, not our hatred or paranoia.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
      I will admit the LDS Church has done a HORRIBLE job at responding to issues that people have raised up over the years. I think the attitude has been if something is just ignored it will go away or people will just forget about it. I have read a lot of anti-Mormon material in my life. Much on the internet. I have read through James White "Letters to Mormon Elder". Marvin Cowan "Mormon claims answered, Walter Martin "Kingdom of the Cults" section on the LDS Church. I have read through much of the Tanners "The Changing World of Mormonism" and plenty of other articles whether it be from Matthew Slick to Bill Mckeever. Suffice to say, I pretty much have heard it all. My faith has been made stronger by not avoiding the issues but taking them head on.

      I wish the LDS Church would have a class on anti-Mormonism. Have an alternative class during Sunday school where members deal with a topic each week and study through it. Have a comprehensive lesson manual or DVD set that goes through all the issues. It would make good family home evening lessons. Have classes at BYU dedicated to Anti-Mormonism. Just educate the members. If my son goes on a mission, I will be sure to go through an Anti-Mormon book, paragraph by paragraph so he knows the issues and how to respond to the issues presented. I can't get the Church to defend itself as it seems to like having rocks throw at it and passively does nothing but I can do some things in my very small sphere of influence with my family.
      Here's the problem.... Mormonism was built on a false prophet, a phony theology, and is riddled with scandals, internal conflicts, lies, distortions, goofy ideas, false teachings.... how do you have a "class" to deal with that? There are MANY legitimate issues challenging the veracity of Smith as a Prophet, and the Book of Mormon as true --- any class that attempted to deal with those is bound to raise more questions than it answers.

      FOR EXAMPLE.... give me an outline of the lesson you would teach on why God would give Smith a "revelation" that He would DESTROY Smith's otherwise very faithful and obedient wife for not going along with his polygamy scam that was later "recalled".
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Here's the problem.... Mormonism was built on a false prophet, a phony theology, and is riddled with scandals, internal conflicts, lies, distortions, goofy ideas, false teachings.... how do you have a "class" to deal with that? There are MANY legitimate issues challenging the veracity of Smith as a Prophet, and the Book of Mormon as true --- any class that attempted to deal with those is bound to raise more questions than it answers.

        FOR EXAMPLE.... give me an outline of the lesson you would teach on why God would give Smith a "revelation" that He would DESTROY Smith's otherwise very faithful and obedient wife for not going along with his polygamy scam that was later "recalled".
        Yup. By all means, please start an 'anti-Mormonism' class.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Yup. By all means, please start an 'anti-Mormonism' class.
          FairMormon pretty much attempts to do that, but over and over, when citing the "anti" claims, they have to add the disclaimer that "reading further may be damaging to your faith". When I have time later this week, I'll find some of those.

          And then their "response" is incredibly Dog-Ate-My-Homeworkish.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Yup. By all means, please start an 'anti-Mormonism' class.
            I created a thread for CD to do just that.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              One is not shocked to find you equating anti-Mormon to anti-religion.
              I have demonstrated over and over on this forum that the same tactics are used by both.

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Of course, most Christians counter atheist arguments with opposing arguments instead of pretending their history never happened and throwing past leaders under the bus.
              Admitting fallibility is not the same as "throwing under the bus". The same applies to Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles, by the way.

              -7up

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                With regards to the Mormon Church, it's not so much "the internet" "destroying" the Church as it is making it MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for the Mormons to conceal their rather shaky foundations.
                Not so. The only thing that makes things difficult is our sinful nature.

                Anybody can read the criticisms of the LDS church online. If they stop there, then they are just looking for what they were seeking all along and thus they get their justifications. On the other hand, a defense of those criticisms are available as well.

                An honest person seeking truth will not just read the criticism and make a decision. They would consider both sides of the issue, and hopefully seek God's counsel for guidance as well.

                -7up

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  Not so. The only thing that makes things difficult is our sinful nature.
                  That's a dodge. When somebody grows up believing that Joseph Smith translated the plates by sitting looking directly at them, then finds out he actually stuck his head in a hat, or any number of other things that, in reality, are not at all like they were taught growing up, it causes a crisis of belief.

                  It's silly to blame "our sinful nature" on the fact that the Mormon Church has taught MANY things in a WAY different light than actually happened.

                  Anybody can read the criticisms of the LDS church online. If they stop there, then they are just looking for what they were seeking all along and thus they get their justifications. On the other hand, a defense of those criticisms are available as well.
                  Quite often, it's a totally goofy "response". And you are automatically assuming that those criticisms are not true. Smith was a fraud -- his stupid "revelation" that God would destroy Emma is a classic example. If this is so easily explained, that thread is still waiting for you to take the position as teacher.

                  An honest person seeking truth will not just read the criticism and make a decision.
                  Nor would they take at face value the often GOOFY explanations available on your Church's websites.

                  They would consider both sides of the issue, and hopefully seek God's counsel for guidance as well.

                  -7up
                  I agree 100%. And I did, and God's counsel was that Smith was a false prophet, and the Book of Mormon is a travesty.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                    I have demonstrated over and over on this forum that the same tactics are used by both.
                    You could've fooled me.
                    Admitting fallibility is not the same as "throwing under the bus".
                    Of course it's not.
                    The same applies to Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles, by the way.
                    Yes, we've seen them get thrown under the bus by Mormons too (on the old Tweb; can't say I've seen it on the new Tweb yet, but give it time).
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That's a dodge. When somebody grows up believing that Joseph Smith translated the plates by sitting looking directly at them, then finds out he actually stuck his head in a hat, or any number of other things that, in reality, are not at all like they were taught growing up, it causes a crisis of belief.
                      Especially if they find out this was the same method he used to bilk folks out of money as a treasure hunter.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Especially if they find out this was the same method he used to bilk folks out of money as a treasure hunter.
                        And bilking people out of money as a banker was similar to fooling people about the gold plates -- he allowed people to "heft them" (the alleged gold in boxes and the gold plates wrapped up in cloth) to feel the weight, but nobody could SEE them.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          "Anti, Anti, Anti!!"

                          The whole concept of "anti-mormonism" shows how paranoid the LDS church is.

                          After all, we don't call atheism "anti-christianism" as if their sole existence was to attack our religion. No, we call them "unsaved" - meaning that they need our help to find God, not our hatred or paranoia.
                          When I use the term "anti-Mormon" it is used in this fashion.

                          Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

                          Anti: one that is opposed

                          Mormon: the ancient redactor and compiler of the Book of Mormon presented as divine revelation by Joseph Smith 2 : LATTER-DAY SAINT; especially : a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

                          An Anti-Mormon is one who is opposed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This does not mean that those who are not LDS or agree with LDS doctrine are "Anti-Mormons". People have a right to believe as they choose and think differently than LDS. An Anti-Mormon is one who actively opposes the LDS faith. They preach against the LDS faith. They write books, make videos, pamphets, websites, gives presentations directly on and against the LDS faith. They take time out of their lives to oppose the LDS faith. In conversations with LDS, they would rather tell the LDS person why they are wrong instead of spending the bulk of their time telling the LDS about their respective faith and why they believe it. They lecture LDS on what they think the LDS faith teaches and insist LDS accept what they are saying or else they will claim the LDS is lying or hiding something.

                          It is not an issue of being paranoid, it is simply one of examining behavior or certain people or groups.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Here's the problem.... Mormonism was built on a false prophet, a phony theology, and is riddled with scandals, internal conflicts, lies, distortions, goofy ideas, false teachings.... how do you have a "class" to deal with that? There are MANY legitimate issues challenging the veracity of Smith as a Prophet, and the Book of Mormon as true --- any class that attempted to deal with those is bound to raise more questions than it answers.

                            FOR EXAMPLE.... give me an outline of the lesson you would teach on why God would give Smith a "revelation" that He would DESTROY Smith's otherwise very faithful and obedient wife for not going along with his polygamy scam that was later "recalled".

                            How do you have a class on it? Easy. One opens say "The Changing Word of Mormonism" Chapter 1. Starts reading it paragraph by paragraph and commenting on it and responding to the claims.

                            How would I begin a lesson from your example. Line upon line, precept on precept. First start with the issue of polygamy. That there are times when God commands it and times that God does not. Show that violations to commandments do contain consequences. The scriptures often use words like "perish" and "damned" for those who do not repent and follow God. Perhaps words like "perish" and "damned" are nicer than words like "destroy" to you. God gives all people agency to choose to live his commandments but he does not give people the choice to avoid any punishment that will eventually come by disobedience. Emma was not threatened with being stoned, beheaded, or even physically killed or tortured. But failure to obey the commandments would risk her being "destroyed", "damned", "perished" whatever word you prefer to show an eternal consequence.
                            Last edited by carbon dioxide; 06-06-2014, 04:01 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
                              When I use the term "anti-Mormon" it is used in this fashion.

                              Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

                              Anti: one that is opposed

                              Mormon: the ancient redactor and compiler of the Book of Mormon presented as divine revelation by Joseph Smith 2 : LATTER-DAY SAINT; especially : a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

                              An Anti-Mormon is one who is opposed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This does not mean that those who are not LDS or agree with LDS doctrine are "Anti-Mormons". People have a right to believe as they choose and think differently than LDS. An Anti-Mormon is one who actively opposes the LDS faith. They preach against the LDS faith. They write books, make videos, pamphets, websites, gives presentations directly on and against the LDS faith. They take time out of their lives to oppose the LDS faith.
                              They do this because they think it is wrong, and care enough to attempt to correct someone going the wrong way.
                              In conversations with LDS, they would rather tell the LDS person why they are wrong instead of spending the bulk of their time telling the LDS about their respective faith and why they believe it.
                              I'm sure you'd much rather simply have people tell you about their respective faith. That way you can say "how nice for you" and move on without having to examine your own faith.
                              They lecture LDS on what they think the LDS faith teaches and insist LDS accept what they are saying or else they will claim the LDS is lying or hiding something.

                              It is not an issue of being paranoid, it is simply one of examining behavior or certain people or groups.
                              I'd be ecstatic if Joe Mormon would take the time to learn what his various forebears taught rather than go with the airbrushed picture typically fed them.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                They do this because they think it is wrong, and care enough to attempt to correct someone going the wrong way.

                                I'm sure you'd much rather simply have people tell you about their respective faith. That way you can say "how nice for you" and move on without having to examine your own faith.

                                I'd be ecstatic if Joe Mormon would take the time to learn what his various forebears taught rather than go with the airbrushed picture typically fed them.
                                I don't doubt that these anti-Mormons think they have good motives. These people however spend more time telling people why they are wrong than why they are right. And the amount of errors that one sees as they try debunk another faith is a real turnoff. Innocent errors is one thing but often they are very intentional misrepresentations. Including some material to build their case while omitting things that would negate it. When I read through an Anti-Mormon book and find an error probably in pretty much every paragraph, how can I really take these people seriously or even think they are halfway honest. An honest person would at least try to represent things accurately. Perhaps consult with LDS people beforehand to make sure what they are claiming is in the ball park of what Mormons actually believe. There actually may be an actual difference between what you believe Mormons believe and what Mormons themselves actually believe. If your views of what Mormons believe and my views of what Mormons believe actually match each other, we will have very few disagreements on anything.
                                Last edited by carbon dioxide; 06-06-2014, 04:36 PM.

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