The Internet is Destroying the LDS Church

[Cow Poke]

If you aren't bashing LDSism in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity,

That's just plain goofy.

then why ARE you bashing it?

Because I sincerely believe your "prophet" is phoney, your Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, and millions of people are being suckered by your Church's deception.

[Cow Poke]

That is good, because your preaching should always tie back to that foundation.

It does.

Also good is the fact that the LDS church hasn't changed its claim regarding fundamentals from what Joseph Smith stated.

That's debatable.

No doctrine in the gospel is more important than the Atonement of Jesus Christ. If the gospel were compared to a wheel, the Atonement would be the hub and all other doctrines would be the spokes emanating from the hub. As the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121).
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines...hrist?lang=eng

Well, yeah, you GOT to get SOME things right in order to sucker people into your beliefs! It would be SILLY to lead with "Our Church was founded by a 'prophet' who found some gold plates, kinda like he used to find "treasure" using seer stones, and translated them, though we have varying stories of HOW he translated them, and nobody could see them and the angel took them back, and he instituted polygamy which was an abomination in the resulting Book of Mormon, and his wife opposed it, but he claimed God threatened to destroy her if she didn't go along with this polygamy scam which was later repealed......"

[Cow Poke]

So you're denying that you want to make a sale for your version of Jesus?

"a sale"

[Cow Poke]

No doctrine in the gospel is more important than the Atonement of Jesus Christ. If the gospel were compared to a wheel, the Atonement would be the hub and all other doctrines would be the spokes emanating from the hub. As the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121).
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines...hrist?lang=eng

Meh --- I think the resurrection is the "hub", because without it, the atonement is useless.

Source: 1 Cor 15

[12]*Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13]*But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: [14]*And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. [15]*Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. [16]*For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [17]*And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. [18]*Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [19]*If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

© Copyright Original Source

HOWEVER, in all fairness, it's kinda hard to argue as it can become a "chicken or the egg" thing....

[NRA-Jeff]

That's just plain goofy.

I agree that it seems pretty goofy to be bashing LDSism in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity, but you must have SOME motive, right? So why can't your motive be the noble cause of "winning souls for Jesus" ? If not that, doesn't any other motive or agenda kind of pale in comparison, and seem rather petty? Why not give yourself the benefit of the doubt, and claim that it's the zeal borne of the Great Commission that drives you?

Because I sincerely believe your "prophet" is phoney, your Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, and millions of people are being suckered by your Church's deception.

Is that the only reason or motivation behind the bashing? Couldn't the expression of such feelings be the manifestation of a sincere desire to convert--to what you feel to be the "real" Jesus--those who you see as believers in the "phoney" prophet and the "fictional" book?

[NRA-Jeff]

Meh --- I think the resurrection is the "hub", because without it, the atonement is useless.
...
HOWEVER, in all fairness, it's kinda hard to argue as it can become a "chicken or the egg" thing....

Without Christ's Atonement which makes the remission of sins possible, resurrection isn't really so wonderful, but Paul did go to the trouble of specifically mentioning the resurrection when he stated the parts of the gospel that are of chief importance (in 1 Cor. 15), so both are essential. But I still believe that if one is preeminent, it's the Atonement.

[Cow Poke]

Without Christ's Atonement which makes the remission of sins possible, resurrection isn't really so wonderful, but Paul did go to the trouble of specifically mentioning the resurrection when he stated the parts of the gospel that are of chief importance (in 1 Cor. 15), so both are essential. But I still believe that if one is preeminent, it's the Atonement.

No argument here, Jeff --- the Resurrection doesn't mean a lot without the Atonement, and the Atonement is useless without the Resurrection. I don't see any point in arguing about this.

[Cow Poke]

I agree that it seems pretty goofy to be bashing LDSism

Ah, the good ol' Jeffonian "let me dishonestly misrepresent what you said cause I can't really make a point on my own" nonsense.

in the hope that you can make a sale for your brand of Christianity,

"A sale" equates to "cheap grace", Jeff --- THAT is goofy.

but you must have SOME motive, right? So why can't your motive be the noble cause of "winning souls for Jesus" ?

In real life, I'm a personal soul winner. Here on Tweb, in the MORMON Forum, I expose Mormonism for the fraud that it is.

If not that, doesn't any other motive or agenda kind of pale in comparison, and seem rather petty? Why not give yourself the benefit of the doubt, and claim that it's the zeal borne of the Great Commission that drives you?

I seek to win people to Christ in Real Life, Jeff, and to lead them away from false prophets and religions where necessary.

Is that the only reason or motivation behind the bashing? Couldn't the expression of such feelings be the manifestation of a sincere desire to convert--to what you feel to be the "real" Jesus--those who you see as believers in the "phoney" prophet and the "fictional" book?

I'm fine with the way I expressed it. Thanks.

[Bill the Cat]

Claiming a "sale" involves the exchange of goods and service for payment or other goods and services. We get no goods or services for bringing a nonbeliever to Christ, so there is no "sale" to speak of.

[OingoBoingo]

I went through this whole thread and was surprised that nobody noted that Mattsson, who holds a position analogous to a Cardinal in the Mormon church, never heard of, or investigated till very late, the claims about Joseph Smith's polygamy, and other historical coverups. How do you get to that position of influence in a major organized religious movement (over 15 million adherents) and not know that kind of stuff, or not be bothered to look into it much earlier? That's really frightening. Makes you wonder who else that high up (or higher) has little clue about the embarrassing details of Mormon past history. That Mattsson would stay after coming to his new found revelations is just a testimony to how powerful a hold religion (without reason) can have on people. Makes you wonder if historical ignorance is a widespread issue among high ranking organized religious leaders, or if Mormonism lends itself to this type of ear plugging. Its one thing if you're basing your beliefs on religions that are thousands of years old, when so much information has been lost over the millennia. Its another thing when the religion hasn't even reached its bicentennial yet.

[One Bad Pig]

Its another thing when the religion hasn't even reached its bicentennial yet.

And this is a religion where its early leaders were very much into writing things down for posterity (journals/diaries, speech transcriptions, etc.)

[NRA-Jeff]

Ah, the good ol' Jeffonian "let me dishonestly misrepresent what you said cause I can't really make a point on my own" nonsense.

That is the risk you incur when you derogate as "just plain goofy" what another poster stated in good faith.
I was hoping that when I stopped by this forum to see how things were going, I would find that people would be treating each other better, like how it was around the time I left. I am sad to see that apparently things have devolved back toward being a contest to see who can insult others the most. That got old, especially after OC died, but it seemed to me to have improved. Now I see things returning to the "good" old days, and that saddens me.

"A sale" equates to "cheap grace", Jeff --- THAT is goofy.

I think you, Sparko, and BTC read more into it than was intended. I was merely referring to CO2's Honda salesman metaphor.

In real life, I'm a personal soul winner. Here on Tweb, in the MORMON Forum, I expose Mormonism for the fraud that it is.

So it's a case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde--leading two disparate lives?

I seek to win people to Christ in Real Life, Jeff, and to lead them away from false prophets and religions where necessary.

It's lamentable that what we seek to do in real life, we don't seek to do in Internet forums.

[Cow Poke]

That is the risk you incur when you derogate as "just plain goofy" what another poster stated in good faith.

Have fun, Jeff. I see no value in discussions with you.

[NRA-Jeff]

I went through this whole thread and was surprised that nobody noted that Mattsson, who holds a position analogous to a Cardinal in the Mormon church, never heard of, or investigated till very late, the claims about Joseph Smith's polygamy, and other historical coverups.

I noticed that right off the bat as well, and wondered similarly to you, but I didn't mention it.

How do you get to that position of influence in a major organized religious movement (over 15 million adherents) and not know that kind of stuff, or not be bothered to look into it much earlier? That's really frightening. Makes you wonder who else that high up (or higher) has little clue about the embarrassing details of Mormon past history.

I dunno, but if you're right, it might shoot some holes in the conspiracy theory that the leaders know all the embarrassing secrets and are keeping them from the public. :)

That Mattsson would stay after coming to his new found revelations is just a testimony to how powerful a hold religion (without reason) can have on people. Makes you wonder if historical ignorance is a widespread issue among high ranking organized religious leaders, or if Mormonism lends itself to this type of ear plugging. Its one thing if you're basing your beliefs on religions that are thousands of years old, when so much information has been lost over the millennia. Its another thing when the religion hasn't even reached its bicentennial yet.

That is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have a low opinion of all religions, but you are more understanding regarding the gullibility of adherents to the ones that are very old?

[Sparko]

Have fun, Jeff. I see no value in discussions with you.