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Islam: Allah has no son

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  • Originally posted by siam View Post
    I agree.

    God does not require you to be "Muslim"---God only requires that you worship him alone and none other....this would make you a "muslim" (one who submits to God)
    Therefore, whatever "mysteries" there may be in your concept of the Divine, leave them upto God and worship God alone as Jesus (pbuh) taught in the Lords prayer. It is a very simple thing to do.
    God is not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim---he is the creator of all humanity and all creation, therefore, is "Universal".
    God's compassion and mercy extends to all theists and non-theists alike because all humanity is equal under God---none superior/inferior to the other.
    There is only One God, the most compassionate, the most merciful.
    What???

    Islam teaches that all will be MUSLIMS and that when Jesus returns everyone who is not a MUSLIM will be killed if they don't convert to Islam.

    We say the Lord's prayer in church every Sunday.

    Jesus claimed things for Himself that only God could claim for Himself.
    Last edited by Christian3; 05-20-2020, 06:28 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by siam View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Trucker View Post
      Amen Brother!!! The "Isa" as defined by Muhammad is most definitely NOT the Jesus as defined in and by the Scriptures. Whoever or whatever composed the Qur'an appears to have had one of the most absurd understandings of Christianity and the HOLY SCRIPTURES I have ever encountered.
      It may be a difficult idea to accept--BUT---the Quran is not about Christianity or Christians.
      All of which essentially is nothing more than diversionary bloviation and does not even address the issues I presented, sir. Fact is the Qur'an say's quite a bit about Christianity and Christians .... AS DEFINED FOR YOU BY MUHAMMAD. You know it and we know it.


      Originally posted by siam View Post
      God is concerned with all of humanity---not just Christians...you know?!....v
      The God of the Holy Scriptures sent His Only, UNIQUE Son to the cross so that anyone could have eternal life as free and unmerited gift, sir. The Allah as defined by Muhammad is above having a son, sir. That is a fundamental and irreconcilable difference, sir. You know it and we know it. If you don't know then you have no conception of what your're trying to discuss.

      Originally posted by siam View Post
      Also---it is Christians who prefer to have an adversarial stance with regards to the Quran---the Quran itself considers them as part of the "Believers" along with the Jews and others who accept One God.
      It is the holy Scriptures [THE BIBLE!]that clearly establishes the fundamental and irreconcilable differences between the ONE TRUE GOD, Yahweh and the "Allah" Muhammad defined for you sir. To try to pretend otherwise is to live in a pseudo-reality.

      Originally posted by siam View Post
      There are similarities between Christianity and Islam and even in the understanding of Jesus Christ (pbuh)--if you want....we can explore those.

      The so called similarities are mostly superficial and merely illusionary, sir.

      Comment


      • Really? Can Yahweh the God of Israel and the Jews actually be the same as the “Allah” of Islam? Let the actual Scriptures of Judaism, Christianity and Islam expose such a flawed comparison and ideas propagated by some desperate polemicists here.

        The Jewish scriptures constantly referred to God as “FATHER” in many places and has Israel relate to God as their Father Who is their loving and kind Creator, Protector and Guide. OT references to the Fatherhood of God include:

        Isaiah 63:16 - But You are our FATHER, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our FATHER, our Redeemer from of old is your name;

        Psalms 2:7 -I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your FATHER.’;

        Deuteronomy. 32:6 -Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not YOUR FATHER, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

        This is echoed through the apostle John in the New Testament who heard directly from the lips of Jesus Christ himself, recording in John 1: 12-13:

        Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become CHILDREN of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

        Consistent with the O.T., in Matthew 6 Jesus Christ taught his disciples to address God as "Our FATHER Who art in heaven,"

        The Muslim Quran rejects outright and denies any Father-child relationship that the both the Torah/OT teaches about and Jesus in the New Testament affirms to all born-again followers of Jesus Christ. Muslims never call Allah their "father" and in fact they are PROHIBITED from calling their deity as "Father" UNLIKE the Christians and the Jews who can and is endorsed by their Scriptures.

        It asserts: ‘And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: ‘We are the children of God and His loved ones.’ Say: ‘Why then does He punish you for your sins?’ Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created’.
        Surah al-Maidah 5/18

        The Creator of the heavens and the earth. How should He have a son when He has no consort (wife)? He created all things and has knowledge of all things. Sura 6/101

        'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.’ Sura 72/3

        'He (Allah) does not beget' (any children) sura 112/3

        There is therefore no way that the YAHWEH of the Jews can be the Allah of Muhamed and Islam. The Jewish Scriptures proclaim that Yahweh is the FATHER of His people Israel, the Koran says “NO” to all that about its Allah.

        Any equivocation of those two names are only imaginary and the wild fiction of propogandists like YHWH rules.


        Originally posted by YHWH RULES View Post
        The Allah of the Quran is YAHWEH, as revealed to the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The fact the Arabs or Muslims in general don't identify Allah as YAHWEH, doesn't disqualify them as Abrahamic monotheists and members of the same spiritual heritage as the Israelites. Muslims in general, are actually closer to YAHWEH Aloah/Alohim, than most Christians, who have adulterated their religion with neo-platonic philosophy and paganism. The Muslims worship the AL/ALOAH of Abraham, and they love and respect the prophets, including Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus, who they call "Issa".


        If Jesus is indeed the second Adam, as Christians claim, then that's the end of it. His martyrdom on a Roman cross and his resurrection, saves all of humanity from the grave. If by the failure of the first Adam, all of humanity was consigned to death in the grave, then by the success of the second Adam, all of humanity is spared from death. It's that simple. You and I didn't need to have faith in the first Adam or even know he existed, to experience the negative effects of his failure, likewise, all of humanity will experience the benefits of the cross and resurrection of the second Adam, by rising from the dead. You and I will be judged, not on what religious dogmas we confess but on how we behave as human beings. Our deeds, the way we walked according to our God given conscience, will determine our position, after the resurrection. Muslims who love Aloah/Allah, the AL of Abraham, and live as devout Muslims, being good, responsible human beings, will enter paradise. It's the lawless, protestant Evangelicals, with their spiritual bullying and triumphalism, throwing everyone under the bus, who doesn't confess their religious philosophy, that are in a much worse position before God, than Muslims.


        YAHWEH will judge humanity, based on the information they had available to them and how they behaved (deeds, works, not mere confessions of belief or religious dogma). Their actions are more important than their theology.

        Comment


        • Really?? Christians have an adversarial stand towards the koran?

          How disingenuous of you as usual again...!

          How about the other way round is actually the case..? The koran says things about Christians and the Gospel in the Bible that are misrepresentations and even outright lies.

          Muslims expect Christians to shut both eyes and ears to such falsehoods and sweep them under the proverbial carpet, in the name of banal political correctness?!?

          For example in sura 5/116 the koran misrepresents the Trinity as "God the Father, the Mother and the Son"... when that was NEVER the case - cf.Matthew 28:18-20.

          In sura 72/3 and 6/101 your koran erroneously assumes that God "cannot have a Son because He has no wife or consort"! This is specifically repeated in the encounter and confrontation of muhamed against the Christians who visited him from Najran, Arabia in surah 3/59-61. BUT Jesus Christ was never the Son of God through biological and sexual reproduction!

          The Koran denies central event of the Gospel - the CRUCIFIXION and resurrection of Jesus Christ (4/157), is denied - despite all the internal and external historical facts that prove this major event that really happened 2,000 years ago.

          Your plea and expectation for genuine Christians to focus only on the similarities of the Jesus in the Bible and in the Koran, while ignoring the GLARING and pronounced differences - that are CENTRAL TO Christians, found in the koran, is just a cop-out. It is unreal and a subversion of the historical Gospel of Christ by a pretender to the throne that is unworthy to even be mentioned.








          Originally posted by siam View Post
          It may be a difficult idea to accept--BUT---the Quran is not about Christianity or Christians. God is concerned with all of humanity---not just Christians...you know?!....

          Also---it is Christians who prefer to have an adversarial stance with regards to the Quran---the Quran itself considers them as part of the "Believers" along with the Jews and others who accept One God.
          There are similarities between Christianity and Islam and even in the understanding of Jesus Christ (pbuh)--if you want....we can explore those.

          Comment


          • Siam and other muslim dawagandists [missionaries] - read carefully below:

            Surah 9/30 says -

            The Jews call 'Uzair (Ezra?) a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. GOD'S CURSE BE ON them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

            This IS HATE SPEECH of the first degree from your koran, siam...nothing less. The Koran here is very ADVERSARIAL in tone and volume!

            THEN, from sura fatihah (1) / 6-7:

            Many people (including Muslims) are unaware of the fact that Surah al-Fatihah, the chapter that Muslims are required to recite at the start of each and every one of their daily prayers (SALAT / NAMAZ) actually contains an invocation asking Allah TO NEVER ALLOW THEM them to become like a Jew or a Christian, in effect, vilifying and condemning THEM JUST LIKE ADVERSARIES AND VIRULENT ENEMIES.

            In sura 1 vs 6-7, Muslims pray that Allah guide them to the straight path, saving them from the path of those who have incurred his anger and/or who have gone astray:

            "Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose portion is not WRATH, and who go not ASTRAY." A. Yusuf Ali

            According to the Muslim sources, THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred Allah’s WRATH/CURSE/CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:

            "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

            Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

            And 2: "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

            This is confirmation of VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses against the Christian and the Jews.


            [This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. (Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

            The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi

            Are you recognised as even half a scholar like ANY of the above names, siam?

            And, WHAT Part of "adversarial" don't you understand from the above, siam?

            The Christians are NOT being adversarial here, but so many of the the Koran's verses, statements and commands here, ARE! And full of unjustified HATE SPEECH against Jews and Christians. OR - are you just denying these verses AND the Ulamas/Muslim scholars confirmations from your Koran?

            Religion of peace? Pah! Humbug.



            Originally posted by siam View Post
            It may be a difficult idea to accept--BUT---the Quran is not about Christianity or Christians. God is concerned with all of humanity---not just Christians...you know?!....

            Also---it is Christians who prefer to have an adversarial stance with regards to the Quran---the Quran itself considers them as part of the "Believers" along with the Jews and others who accept One God.
            There are similarities between Christianity and Islam and even in the understanding of Jesus Christ (pbuh)--if you want....we can explore those.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              Siam and other muslim dawagandists [missionaries] - read carefully below:

              Surah 9/30 says -

              The Jews call 'Uzair (Ezra?) a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. GOD'S CURSE BE ON them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

              This IS HATE SPEECH of the first degree from your koran, siam...nothing less. The Koran here is very ADVERSARIAL in tone and volume!

              THEN, from sura fatihah (1) / 6-7:

              Many people (including Muslims) are unaware of the fact that Surah al-Fatihah, the chapter that Muslims are required to recite at the start of each and every one of their daily prayers (SALAT / NAMAZ) actually contains an invocation asking Allah TO NEVER ALLOW THEM them to become like a Jew or a Christian, in effect, vilifying and condemning THEM JUST LIKE ADVERSARIES AND VIRULENT ENEMIES.

              In sura 1 vs 6-7, Muslims pray that Allah guide them to the straight path, saving them from the path of those who have incurred his anger and/or who have gone astray:

              "Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose portion is not WRATH, and who go not ASTRAY." A. Yusuf Ali

              According to the Muslim sources, THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred Allah’s WRATH/CURSE/CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:

              "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

              Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

              And 2: "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

              This is confirmation of VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses against the Christian and the Jews.


              [This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. (Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

              The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi

              Are you recognised as even half a scholar like ANY of the above names, siam?

              And, WHAT Part of "adversarial" don't you understand from the above, siam?

              The Christians are NOT being adversarial here, but so many of the the Koran's verses, statements and commands here, ARE! And full of unjustified HATE SPEECH against Jews and Christians. OR - are you just denying these verses AND the Ulamas/Muslim scholars confirmations from your Koran?

              Religion of peace? Pah! Humbug.
              And curse on Jews and Christians is the result of the author of the Qur'an's mistaken idea that "Son of God" meant literal sons via sex.

              Comment


              • Sure got quiet in here.

                Comment


                • Like I predicted, the missionaries all ran away..especially those with selective memories and thinking. They can't seem to handle the factual exposes put to them, it's all so "adversarial" when it suits them.


                  Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                  Sure got quiet in here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                    Like I predicted, the missionaries all ran away..especially those with selective memories and thinking. They can't seem to handle the factual exposes put to them, it's all so "adversarial" when it suits them.
                    .....

                    Comment


                    • Yeah, Trucker. Its confirmed that siam has run away to another track "Apologetics 301" to look for more speculative entertainment, while avoiding the factual questions involving koranic scripture & verses contradictions put to him by both you, Christian3 and myself.

                      It's pathetic but just so typical of many dawagandists we've seen on TWeb.



                      Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                      .....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                        Yeah, Trucker. Its confirmed that siam has run away to another track "Apologetics 301" to look for more speculative entertainment, while avoiding the factual questions involving koranic scripture & verses contradictions put to him by both you, Christian3 and myself.

                        It's pathetic but just so typical of many dawagandists we've seen on TWeb.
                        Maybe my el cheapo deoderant stopped working and chased slam out.

                        I also see my long time buddy is over there trying to keep slam straight.
                        .

                        Comment


                        • And who's that "long time buddy"?

                          Don't worry, it takes something cheaper than deodorant to chase some people away.

                          Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Maybe my el cheapo deoderant stopped working and chased slam out.

                          I also see my long time buddy is over there trying to keep slam straight.
                          .

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                            And who's that "long time buddy"?
                            You know him here as Christian3. I've "known" him for years by a different handle as a fellow poster on a different discussion board. I much appreciate his comments. He also directed me to this forum, which again I appreciate.

                            Comment


                            • Ah, he's a good brother and makes good comments.


                              Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                              You know him here as Christian3. I've "known" him for years by a different handle as a fellow poster on a different discussion board. I much appreciate his comments. He also directed me to this forum, which again I appreciate.

                              Comment


                              • Siam, you have run away from this discussion without substantiating your claim "the quran is not about Christianity or Christians". But I can show you koranic verses after verses that contradict and expose your claims above.

                                1) sura 1/6-7: "those who have not incurred your (ie. God's) WRATH and curses, nor those who have gone ASTRAY ("lost their way")". The former are the Jews and the latter are the Christians according to the muffassirs and exegetes of the koran.

                                2) sura 9/29: "FIGHT AGAINST the people of the Book" ie. the Jews and Christians - for NOT BELIEVING in Allah, Muhamed and in islam.

                                3) Sura 9/30: "The CHRISTIANS say 'the Messiah is the Son of God' - they copy the infidels of old, God CURSE (attack) them, how deluded they are!"

                                4) sura 98/6: "those who are from the People of the Book, who 'associate gods with God' - ie. the Trinitarian CHRISTIANS, shall be thrown into the fire of jahannam (ie. hell) and stay there forever.

                                They are the WORST OF ALL CREATURES." !

                                WHY does the koran vilify, attack and condemn the CHRISTIANS in all the above verses?

                                They prove that your claim that the koran "does not speak these things about the Christians" is simply untrue.

                                Can you be more honest the next time?


                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                It may be a difficult idea to accept--BUT---the Quran is not about Christianity or Christians. God is concerned with all of humanity---not just Christians...you know?!....

                                Also---it is Christians who prefer to have an adversarial stance with regards to the Quran---the Quran itself considers them as part of the "Believers" along with the Jews and others who accept One God.
                                There are similarities between Christianity and Islam and even in the understanding of Jesus Christ (pbuh)--if you want....we can explore those.

                                Comment

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