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Islam: Allah has no son

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  • #76
    Right, cerebrum, islam has to deny the actual original mission of Christ. It has to assign Him with another counterfeit and fake mission like "bringing the gospel into the world" (the islamic revised fake version) and to make Christ "foretell muhamed's coming" 700 years later by extrapolation.

    So, Jesus Christ's mission was never to die on the Cross or to "sacrifice His life as a ransom (redemption) for many," per His own words in Matthew 20:28.

    It's purely after-the-facts extrapolation and baseless, blatant & unwarranted putting of words into Jesus Christ's mouth by the koran. Koranic revisionism at its worst.


    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    No, it's pretty clear that it is saying Jesus wasn't crucified, but that Allah made it appear as if Jesus was crucified.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      ???
      You did not read properly?

      I wrote---
      However, If discussing monotheism and/or Islam with me is causing anxiety ----might I suggest that you examine your beliefs and study Christianity further?

      If this still seems insulting---I apologize.
      siam I mentioned that I studied Islam and CHRISTIANITY at the same time -- since 2002. I still study my faith reading and re-reading the Bible; and Christianity has had a lot of allegations thrown at it and I have investigated them.

      Did you have some kind of the point?

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        No, it's pretty clear that it is saying Jesus wasn't crucified, but that Allah made it appear as if Jesus was crucified.
        I always suggest to Muslims that the Qur'an isn't saying that Jesus didn't die or was crucified using the context of Surah 4:157. Of all the dozens and dozens of Muslims I have suggested this to, only one said it made sense.

        The problem the Muslims have is that the Qur'an says that it confirms past revelations which were in the hands of Christians when the Qur'an was written and that is the Gospel we have today.

        When I ask Muslims what the Gospel is, the answer I get is "we don't know because the Christians lost it," but it is the same one the Qur'an confirms!?

        I talked to two Ahmadi Muslims for two years and they believe Jesus was crucified, but survived the cross, when to India, lived to be 120, died and was buried in Kashmire.

        004.157
        YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

        How could it be made to appear to them?

        Other interpretations: Muhammad Sarwar and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

        Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah. ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him.

        Most Muslims believe someone who looked like Jesus was crucified.

        I have to wonder exactly when this someone else was mistaken for Jesus? Was Jesus arrested? Did Jesus go on trial? Was Jesus flogged?

        The bottom line is that I don't think Muslims can believe Jesus was crucified and died because they would have to consider that Jesus died for the reasons He said He did and I don't think they could remain Muslims if they did.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          I always suggest to Muslims that the Qur'an isn't saying that Jesus didn't die or was crucified using the context of Surah 4:157. Of all the dozens and dozens of Muslims I have suggested this to, only one said it made sense.

          The problem the Muslims have is that the Qur'an says that it confirms past revelations which were in the hands of Christians when the Qur'an was written and that is the Gospel we have today.

          When I ask Muslims what the Gospel is, the answer I get is "we don't know because the Christians lost it," but it is the same one the Qur'an confirms!?

          I talked to two Ahmadi Muslims for two years and they believe Jesus was crucified, but survived the cross, when to India, lived to be 120, died and was buried in Kashmire.

          004.157
          YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

          How could it be made to appear to them?

          Other interpretations: Muhammad Sarwar and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

          Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah. ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him.

          Most Muslims believe someone who looked like Jesus was crucified.

          I have to wonder exactly when this someone else was mistaken for Jesus? Was Jesus arrested? Did Jesus go on trial? Was Jesus flogged?

          The bottom line is that I don't think Muslims can believe Jesus was crucified and died because they would have to consider that Jesus died for the reasons He said He did and I don't think they could remain Muslims if they did.
          Accepting that as the meaning also means that Allah facilitated the largest of religions they believe to be false, and through deceiving those that the Quran declares were Muslims during Jesus' lifetime.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            Accepting that as the meaning also means that Allah facilitated the largest of religions they believe to be false, and through deceiving those that the Quran declares were Muslims during Jesus' lifetime.
            Yes.

            Comment


            • #81
              Exactly, and this inconsistency from the koranic claim is another intermal contradiction within itself that defies logic and common sense.


              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              Accepting that as the meaning also means that Allah facilitated the largest of religions they believe to be false, and through deceiving those that the Quran declares were Muslims during Jesus' lifetime.

              Comment


              • #82
                Many wonder who and when this "substitution" of Jesus Christ had taken place. Some muslims speculate it was Judas Iscariot who was taken, others imagine that it was Simon of Cyrene who was taken by the soldiers, when they asked him to help carry Jesus Cross. Along the via Dolorosa.

                Both are mythical claims, unsupported by the historical facts because we know the eye witnesses around the Cross clearly identified Jesus as he hung on it. There were both Jesus friends and foes who saw his body as Jesus, Peter, James, John, Mary his mother and the other apostles were all recorded in the most ancient manuscripts that predate the koran 700-800 years confirm this.

                No reputable scholar of history either in the last century or this century buys into or accepts the koranic myth of substitution of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Except the muslims who are forced to follow the legends in.the koran.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                  Not at all hard to believe. Stop and think for a moment. If the finite and fallen brain of mankind could fully understand an infinite and eternal Being, one would have to logically start to question just how "Infinite" or "Eternal"' this alleged being really was!!

                  I would posit that the finite mind cannot really and fully understand infinity! We can read and/or hear the word, and in a vague sense, understand there is such an abstract whatever. But really and in depth "understand" it fully??? Actually, while I can't name any off the top of my head at this time, some of the Islamic Thinkers have said that Allah [that's "god" as defined by Muhammad] is not to be understood!! And that sure makes sense to me ... honest sense! But back to the "Trinity" issue ..

                  I would recommend for you THE FORGOTTEN TRINITY by James While. James walks the reader through the Scriptural [that the Bible] as Yahweh reveals Himself to the prophets. I sincerely believe and hope that that book would help you immensely to at least understand what the Scriptures [properly understood] reveal. The book is available here:


                  Hmmmmm ... the link doesn't show! So try Amazon.

                  Try it! If you really want to understand the Scriptural [That the Bible!] presentation of the Trinity, you'll probably love it!
                  There is a free download "Loving the Trinity" by James R. White.
                  https://www.equip.org/PDF/DT250.pdf
                  "That is why I wrote The Forgotten Trinity . . . ."

                  There is a free download of his book, The Forgotten Trinity
                  https://archive.org/details/JamesR.W...k.org/mode/2up
                  Last edited by 37818; 04-04-2020, 11:52 AM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                    Many wonder who and when this "substitution" of Jesus Christ had taken place. Some muslims speculate it was Judas Iscariot who was taken, others imagine that it was Simon of Cyrene who was taken by the soldiers, when they asked him to help carry Jesus Cross. Along the via Dolorosa.
                    Wouldn't you think if it was Judas or Simon that they would have shouted "I'm not Jesus, you got the wrong guy."

                    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post

                    Both are mythical claims, unsupported by the historical facts because we know the eye witnesses around the Cross clearly identified Jesus as he hung on it. There were both Jesus friends and foes who saw his body as Jesus, Peter, James, John, Mary his mother and the other apostles were all recorded in the most ancient manuscripts that predate the koran 700-800 years confirm this.
                    I agree and the result was that they all believed it was Jesus on the cross, so the substitution theory backfired.

                    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post

                    No reputable scholar of history either in the last century or this century buys into or accepts the koranic myth of substitution of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Except the muslims who are forced to follow the legends in.the koran.
                    I agree.

                    But there is more.

                    Not only did Allah fool Jesus’ disciples and His mother, but he also fooled all of the followers of Jesus who believed it was Jesus on that cross up to this day. If this deception had not occurred, no Christian would have claimed that Jesus died on the cross and rose the third day. This event was the beginning of Christianity.

                    If Christianity had not begun, the persecutions of Christians would never have happened.

                    The persecution of Christians is the religious persecution that Christians have endured as a consequence of professing their faith, both historically and in the current era. In the two thousand years of the Christian faith, about 70 million believers, of whom 45.5 million or 65% lived in the twentieth century, have been killed for their faith. (From Wikipedia)

                    The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero himself was suspected as the arsonist by Suetonius[12], claiming he played the lyre and sang the 'Sack of Ilium' during the fires. In his Annals, Tacitus (who claimed Nero was in Antium at the time of the fire's outbreak), stated that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians[13]] by the populace" (Tacit. Annals XV, see Tacitus on Jesus). Suetonius, later to the period, does not mention any persecution after the fire, but in an previous paragraph unrelated to the fire, mentions punisments inflicted on Christians, defined as men following a new and malefic superstition. Suetonius however does not specify the reasons for the punishment, he just listed the fact together with other abuses put down by Nero[14]. (From Wikipedia)

                    No Christianity, no Christian Crusades; hence, all who died during those terrible times were also the result of Allah’s Deception.

                    Allah is responsible for the deaths and persecution of countless of millions of people, including Christians, Jews and Muslims.
                    Last edited by Christian3; 04-04-2020, 11:27 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      When I ask Muslims what the Gospel is, the answer I get is "we don't know because the Christians lost it," but it is the same one the Qur'an confirms!?

                      I talked to two Ahmadi Muslims for two years and they believe Jesus was crucified, but survived the cross, when to India, lived to be 120, died and was buried in Kashmire.
                      That does seem to be the most popular understanding one finds within the Ahmadi Community. But then the Ahmadis are considered to be apostates by the Sunnis and the Shiites

                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      004.157
                      YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

                      How could it be made to appear to them?

                      Other interpretations: Muhammad Sarwar and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.
                      For whatever their reasons relatively very few of the Tafsirs I have been able to access comment on Q4:157.. The consensus appears to be that they did crucify someone other than Jesus. One Tafsir [Tanwīr al-Miqbās min Tafsīr Ibn ‘Abbās ] has it that the person crucified was one Tatianos:
                      ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him.
                      The three volume set of the Quran translated and explained by Mhammad Assad has it this way:
                      Thus the Qur'an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exists, among Mulims, many fanciful legends telling us at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur'an or in authentic Traditions. ......
                      . The comments go on to say much more but I wish not to infringe on any Copyrights. This three volume Qur'an/commentary was published in Dubai in 2003.

                      Edited to add this link which I think will allow anyone to download the complete text of Muhammad Assad's Qur'an/commentary: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311231415_Muhammad_Asad's_the_Message_of_the_Qur'a n
                      Last edited by Trucker; 04-04-2020, 11:39 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                        Exactly, and this inconsistency from the koranic claim is another intermal contradiction within itself that defies logic and common sense.
                        Yup, the Qur'an basically refutes itself.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                          I always suggest to Muslims that the Qur'an isn't saying that Jesus didn't die or was crucified using the context of Surah 4:157. Of all the dozens and dozens of Muslims I have suggested this to, only one said it made sense.

                          The problem the Muslims have is that the Qur'an says that it confirms past revelations which were in the hands of Christians when the Qur'an was written and that is the Gospel we have today.

                          When I ask Muslims what the Gospel is, the answer I get is "we don't know because the Christians lost it," but it is the same one the Qur'an confirms!?

                          I talked to two Ahmadi Muslims for two years and they believe Jesus was crucified, but survived the cross, when to India, lived to be 120, died and was buried in Kashmire.

                          004.157
                          YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

                          How could it be made to appear to them?

                          Other interpretations: Muhammad Sarwar and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

                          Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah. ' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of Prophet Jesus). Those who differ concerning him (Prophet Jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him.

                          Most Muslims believe someone who looked like Jesus was crucified.

                          I have to wonder exactly when this someone else was mistaken for Jesus? Was Jesus arrested? Did Jesus go on trial? Was Jesus flogged?

                          The bottom line is that I don't think Muslims can believe Jesus was crucified and died because they would have to consider that Jesus died for the reasons He said He did and I don't think they could remain Muslims if they did.
                          Made to appear---The Quran does not specify what this entails---there are several speculations among Muslims---the most popular is that another (possibly another criminal?) was substituted.

                          However, there are some Christians who say that Jesus was "Unrecognizable"---
                          ttps://folcc.org/why-jesus-face-was-marred-beyond-human-likeness-isaiah-5214

                          Then there are accounts of how people close to Jesus did not recognize him?
                          Mary at the Tomb? (John 20 14:18)
                          Jesus meets disciples? (John 21:4 and Luke 24 15-16) ..."their eyes were kept from recognizing him." (Luke 24: 15-16)
                          and...
                          https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...ter-his-resurr
                          "The question remains. Why did those who knew Jesus not recognize him? It seems that something must have been different about him. Mark 16:12 records that Jesus "appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country." This is a possible explanation, that Jesus changed forms..."

                          https://biblehub.com/luke/24-16.htm

                          So...even Christians believe that God can change appearances?...

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            Wouldn't you think if it was Judas or Simon that they would have shouted "I'm not Jesus, you got the wrong guy."



                            I agree and the result was that they all believed it was Jesus on the cross, so the substitution theory backfired.



                            I agree.

                            But there is more.

                            Not only did Allah fool Jesus’ disciples and His mother, but he also fooled all of the followers of Jesus who believed it was Jesus on that cross up to this day. If this deception had not occurred, no Christian would have claimed that Jesus died on the cross and rose the third day. This event was the beginning of Christianity.

                            If Christianity had not begun, the persecutions of Christians would never have happened.

                            The persecution of Christians is the religious persecution that Christians have endured as a consequence of professing their faith, both historically and in the current era. In the two thousand years of the Christian faith, about 70 million believers, of whom 45.5 million or 65% lived in the twentieth century, have been killed for their faith. (From Wikipedia)

                            The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero himself was suspected as the arsonist by Suetonius[12], claiming he played the lyre and sang the 'Sack of Ilium' during the fires. In his Annals, Tacitus (who claimed Nero was in Antium at the time of the fire's outbreak), stated that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians[13]] by the populace" (Tacit. Annals XV, see Tacitus on Jesus). Suetonius, later to the period, does not mention any persecution after the fire, but in an previous paragraph unrelated to the fire, mentions punisments inflicted on Christians, defined as men following a new and malefic superstition. Suetonius however does not specify the reasons for the punishment, he just listed the fact together with other abuses put down by Nero[14]. (From Wikipedia)

                            No Christianity, no Christian Crusades; hence, all who died during those terrible times were also the result of Allah’s Deception.

                            Allah is responsible for the deaths and persecution of countless of millions of people, including Christians, Jews and Muslims.
                            Its an interesting point----
                            However, The followers of Masih Jesus, son of Mary, had a choice that day.
                            They could follow the One God and the teachings/message of Jesus (the Jew) to honor only the One God, (Shema) or get distracted with the death of Jesus and end up dividing God.
                            It was their choice and they live with the consequences.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                              siam I mentioned that I studied Islam and CHRISTIANITY at the same time -- since 2002. I still study my faith reading and re-reading the Bible; and Christianity has had a lot of allegations thrown at it and I have investigated them.

                              Did you have some kind of the point?
                              Yes I did....

                              This part of the discussion was in regards to the subject of One God.
                              It is a general observation (and not anything specific to you)...that if we need validation for "self" (Identity, beliefs, Group) by requiring an opposing diametric---then this identity/belief is too shallow to stand on its own terms. So...it needs to deepen.

                              Apologetics is fun and can increase knowledge ...but...it has its limits.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Its an interesting point----
                                However, The followers of Masih Jesus, son of Mary, had a choice that day.
                                They could follow the One God and the teachings/message of Jesus (the Jew) to honor only the One God, (Shema) or get distracted with the death of Jesus and end up dividing God.
                                It was their choice and they live with the consequences.
                                You still don't understand the Shema, siam.

                                There were many reasons why the Jews wanted Jesus dead. One was Jesus claimed to be God.

                                Comment

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