Derail from "Slaughter in Paris."

[robrecht]

This is basically a very egocentric biased view, like robrecht, of your own religious beliefs and agenda, and side stepping some very basic issues of the history of religions, morals, ethics, and human nature.

This is a classic dodge and does not work, because there is some very basic justification of the pogroms, and ethnic cleansing in scripture and the writings of the revered leaders of Christianity.

[One Bad Pig]

You admonished several times before for accusing people of lying. Your post will be reported. You are misinformed as to the extent of the persecution of the Jews in early Christianity.

Source: http://jdstone.org/cr/files/antisemitisminthenewtestament_1.html

Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5

367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3

535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3

538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4

561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.

© Copyright Original Source

Not sure where you got this material, but it is not on the page you cited. Both the material on that page and the material you quote here are in the main uncited quotes. You are citing sloppy polemics, not anything remotely scholarly. Would you accept at face value anti-Baha'i writings like this?

I note, in particular, two especially egregious examples:

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety."

Seriously? A range of 38 years for a synod which met for maybe a couple weeks? It's also persecuting Judaizing Christians, not Jews.

There are several saints named Gregory, with voluminous writings. This "citation" is worthless. It is also, assuming it is an accurate quote, most likely polemic delivered to prevent Christians from Judaizing, not to advocate persecution of Jews. Your source is plainly not interested in accuracy, however, but engaging in polemics himself. Would he accept an anti-Jewish writing from an apostate Jew, like he does an anti-Christian writing from an apostate Christian? I highly doubt it.

[seer]

You admonished several times before for accusing people of lying. Your post will be reported. You are misinformed as to the extent of the persecution of the Jews in early Christianity.

[cite=http://jdstone.org/cr/files/antisemitisminthenewtestament_1.html]

Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

See Shuny, you had to go almost 300 years after Christ to get to this. So again, where did Christ teach that we should harm our enemies? Jew or otherwise? Where did the early Christians harm anyone. What example did Christ and the Apostles set?

[seer]

Define "harm".

Physical harm or deprivation of some sort. Rather than hurt feelings...

[shunyadragon]

You have never fully bothered to investigate the Baha'i Faith honestly, and understanding the vocabulary. If you would bother investigating yourself and read my explanation.

Satan in the Baha'i Faith translates to egohttp://onebahai.blogspot.com/2011/10...#ixzz3rxdXrF5I




The quotes you have been harping on instead making an honest effort to understand the Baha'i Faith in an honest way reflect your voluntary ignorance, and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith. As before your biased hostility toward the Baha'i Faith is very offensive.

[shunyadragon]

See Shuny, you had to go almost 300 years after Christ to get to this. So again, where did Christ teach that we should harm our enemies? Jew or otherwise? Where did the early Christians harm anyone. What example did Christ and the Apostles set?

We have nothing written by the apostles, but Paul will do the citation in the gospels and Paul are accurate and reflect the history of the pogroms and persecution of Jews call 'Christ killers' and 'enemies of the gospel.'

[shunyadragon]

Not sure where you got this material, but it is not on the page you cited. Both the material on that page and the material you quote here are in the main uncited quotes. You are citing sloppy polemics, not anything remotely scholarly. Would you accept at face value anti-Baha'i writings like this?

I note, in particular, two especially egregious examples:


Seriously? A range of 38 years for a synod which met for maybe a couple weeks? It's also persecuting Judaizing Christians, not Jews.


There are several saints named Gregory, with voluminous writings. This "citation" is worthless. It is also, assuming it is an accurate quote, most likely polemic delivered to prevent Christians from Judaizing, not to advocate persecution of Jews. Your source is plainly not interested in accuracy, however, but engaging in polemics himself. Would he accept an anti-Jewish writing from an apostate Jew, like he does an anti-Christian writing from an apostate Christian? I highly doubt it.

Duck, Bob and Weave at its finest. The citations are valid, picking two you have issues with does not amount to a refutation.

[shunyadragon]

See Shuny, you had to go almost 300 years after Christ to get to this. So again, where did Christ teach that we should harm our enemies? Jew or otherwise? Where did the early Christians harm anyone. What example did Christ and the Apostles set?

Until Constantine became Christian. Christianity was a struggling minor religion in Rome. Of course the heavy persecution began when Christianity became Roman, and non-Jews compiled the Bible with the references I cited. The references are real and specific, and the resulting pogroms, ethnic cleansing, and persecution are very real and factual.

[seer]

We have nothing written by the apostles, but Paul will do the citation in the gospels and Paul are accurate and reflect the history of the pogroms and persecution of Jews call 'Christ killers' and 'enemies of the gospel.'

We have the book of Acts, and we have the teachings and example of Christ, and various other letters. So again, where did any Christian harm any one? Where did they call for harm to any one? For three hundred years where did they harm any one - Jew or not? And yes the Jewish leaders and the Italian Government put Christ to death. And again Shuny, you are an enemy of the Gospel, that however does not give me the Biblical right to harm you.

[shunyadragon]

We have the book of Acts, and we have the teachings and example of Christ, and various other letters. So again, where did any Christian harm any one? Where did they call for harm to any one? For three hundred years where did they harm any one - Jew or not? And yes the Jewish leaders and the Italian Government put Christ to death. And again Shuny, you are an enemy of the Gospel, that however does not give me the Biblical right to harm you.

My references in the gospels and letters are clear and specific. The partial list of actions taken by Roman Christianity are real and specific. The pogroms, ethnic cleansing carried out over the very real history and cannot be denied, but your working on it.

There are more citations and I will provide those to.

[One Bad Pig]

That is a lie, did Christ or the early Christians harm any Jews? Even for the first four or five hundred years, or longer? The fact is, you are an enemy of the Gospel and God, but that does not give me the right to harm you. And yes, the Jewish leaders of that time were instrumental in the killing of Christ, but so were my people - the Italians. And the Biblical fact is that we all put Christ on the cross because of our sin.

As much as I tend to disagree with Shunya, this is not a direct response to his accusation - which is hyperbolic, but not entirely false. Christians have used such verses as an excuse to do violence to Jews throughout the centuries. You and I agree that it is against Christian tenets to do so, but it has happened nonetheless.

[shunyadragon]

More references:

[seer]

My references in the gospels and letters are clear and specific. The partial list of actions taken by Roman Christianity are real and specific. The pogroms, and ethnic cleansing carried out over the very real history and cannot be denied, but your working on it.

And my citations on how to deal with our fellow man, Jew or not, enemy or not were clear. And you have not produced one New Testament text that calls us to harm anyone, nor did you show early Christian harming anyone. Listen Shuny I know you hate the Gospel and Christ, but you can not justify pogroms and ethnic cleansing in light of His teachings, and the moral teachings of the NT in general. And you know it - you have not produced one passage that calls for physical harm of any man.

[One Bad Pig]

Duck, Bob and Weave at its finest. The citations are valid, picking two you have issues with does not amount to a refutation.

You, of all people, would know Duck, Bob, and Weave, since you are a peerless master of the practice. Could you possibly have expended less effort in response to a challenge to provide verifiable sources? I do not dispute that Christians have written antagonistic comments about Jews. However, the internet is a wasteland of uncritically copied, unverified material; I refuse to take uncited statements found on the web at face value (whether they support or disagree with my position).

[shunyadragon]

As much as I tend to disagree with Shunya, this is not a direct response to his accusation - which is hyperbolic, but not entirely false. Christians have used such verses as an excuse to do violence to Jews throughout the centuries. You and I agree that it is against Christian tenets to do so, but it has happened nonetheless.

It is not against Christian tenants. Many of the Christian tenants are those of the Baha'i Faith.

It is taking responsibility and being honest about history, which seer seems to want you blame it all on atheists.