Derail from "Slaughter in Paris."

[Tassman]

More from the religion of peace...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...11-13-16-16-27

And so it goes on. "The whole history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades. I find it all very regrettable, to say the least." - Steven Weinberg.

[seer]

And so it goes on. "The whole history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades. I find it all very regrettable, to say the least." - Steven Weinberg.

Yes, but don't forget about the millions and millions killed by atheistic regimes. But hey Tass, we are just doing what we were determined to do by the forces of nature - right?

[Leonhard]

Tassman, seer, you're derailing the thread. This is not a discussion about the foundations of morality, we all agree that these acts of terrorism are terrible. Please take it to the philosophy subforum.

[Juvenal]

In Christianity you have to go directly against what you're expressly told to forcibly convert someone whereas in Islam you have to go directly against what you're expressly told not to forcibly convert someone. You can criticize Christians for some time losing sight of that but you cannot criticize Christianity for it. The same can not be said for Islam. That is not a subtle or insignificant difference.

I'm calling this out as "Lying for Jesus." I don't much care for Islam, but any claim that this ayah isn't central to every muslim's faith can only be attributed to malice.

Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 256

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

And worse. Dragging the bodies of the dead of Benghazi around to score points for your ideology was beyond contemptible, but this, scoring points on these bodies, before they're even cold, for your religion ... there are no words.

I'm done here.

[Cerebrum123]

I'm calling this out as "Lying for Jesus." I don't much care for Islam, but any claim that this ayah isn't central to every muslim's faith can only be attributed to malice.

Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 256

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Abrogation for this verse is very popular, although you can find a few scholars who say otherwise.



Source.

If you want to accuse someone of lying, it's those who practice Islam and taqqiya/abrogation who you should have your sights on, not rogue06.

And worse. Dragging the bodies of the dead of Benghazi around to score points for your ideology was beyond contemptible, but this, scoring points on these bodies, before they're even cold, for your religion ... there are no words.

I'm done here.

Or, maybe you should do some research before you jump down someone's throat for "lying" when you yourself put in blatant falsehood* in your own post is rather contemptible IMO.

*The underlined specifically is blatantly false. Abrogation, taqqiya, Quranic verses, Sahih Hadith, and Islamic scholars show it to be false.

[rogue06]

I'm calling this out as "Lying for Jesus." I don't much care for Islam, but any claim that this ayah isn't central to every muslim's faith can only be attributed to malice.

Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 256

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

And worse. Dragging the bodies of the dead of Benghazi around to score points for your ideology was beyond contemptible, but this, scoring points on these bodies, before they're even cold, for your religion ... there are no words.

I'm done here.

Surah 256, like the other passages that called for peace and tolerance, were later abrogated (superseded or repealed) by surah 9:5 (Ayat al-Sayf or the Verse of the Sword).

The doctrine of abrogation is stated in the Qur'an itself (2:106): "Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof." So a later statement that contradicts an earlier one is thought to be better and abrogates the earlier statement^[1][verse] of the sword."

Today, the conservative Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid^[3], who's fatawas (edicts or rulings) circulate throughout the Islamic world and are taken very seriously, in discussing surah 2:256 ("Let there be no compulsion in religion"), quoted Surahs 8:39, 9:29 along with 9:5 and declared "these and similar verses abrogate those saying there is no compulsion to become Muslim."

So warfare against non-Muslims until they were converted or utterly oppressed was mandated by Muhammad.

This is confirmed by what we read in the Hadiths including the ones venerated as being authoritative like the Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Bukhari:

Sahih Muslim 1:33: The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih al-Bukhari 2:24: "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih al-Bukhari 8:387: "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari 60:80: "The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.' means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

Aside from the Hadiths, Ibn Ishaq (704-767/8, regarded as the earliest and most thorough of Islam's historians), who wrote the Sīrat Rasūl Allāh ("Life of the Messenger of God") relates that,

The text makes clear that the al-Harith^[2] were only taught about Islam afterTafsir al-Tabari and his historical chronicle Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk ("History of the Prophets and Kings") recounts in volume 9 of his History

In volume 10 Tabari quotes Al-Hubab ibn al-Mundhir ibn Zayd (an advisor of Muhammad and who participated during in the meeting at saqifah during the Succession to Muhammad), who was supporting one group of Muslims in their quest for leadership after Muhammad's death, as saying:

"For you are more deserving of this authority than they are, as it was by your swords that those who were not yet converted came to obey this religion."

Finally, I'll cite Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik^[4]. It has something to say about jihad and forced conversion that is relevant to this discussion:

And the hadith reported by Muslim,

1. AFAICT, without exception, all Islamic religious scholars state that abrogation not only included the abolishing, dropping or replacing of a verse by another (often contradictory) verse, but it also includes abolishing a provision of a verse without eliminating its wording or text from the Qur'an. So the verses that were later repealed and replaced remain in the Qur'an but are no longer in effect

2. Actually the Ghassanids with Al-Harith ibn Jabalah being their king.

3. Popularly known for his attacks on Mickey Mouse, calling women who drive prostitutes and blaming the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami on immorality.

4. He is still so widely esteemed and revered that Jabhat al-Nusra (a.k.a. al-Qaeda in Syria) demolished his tomb earlier this year because they viewed it as sacrilegious.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but don't forget about the millions and millions killed by atheistic regimes. But hey Tass, we are just doing what we were determined to do by the forces of nature - right?

Actually, as usual this is very misleading. In Europe Christians enthusiastically did the dirty work of the pogroms, religious and ethnic cleansing regardless of who the despotic rulers believed.

[robrecht]

Actually, as usual this is very misleading. In Europe Christians enthusiastically did the dirty work of the pogroms, religious and ethnic cleansing regardless of who the despotic rulers believed.

I think you misunderstood; seer was referring to atheistic regimes, eg, Stalin in the Soviet Union, and not denying Christian violence against Jews in Europe.

[shunyadragon]

I think you misunderstood; seer was referring to atheistic regimes, eg, Stalin in the Soviet Union, and not denying Christian violence against Jews in Europe.

I did not misunderstand. The Violence against Jews under Stalin and Hitler were committed enthusiastically regardless of the views of the despotic rulers. This also occurred in Yugoslavia in more recent history except the victims were Muslims. Jews were considered 'Christ killers' and the passion plays in Europe fomented violence against the Jews.

[seer]

Actually, as usual this is very misleading. In Europe Christians enthusiastically did the dirty work of the pogroms, religious and ethnic cleansing regardless of who the despotic rulers believed.

That is a lie, was speaking of the Stalinists, the Maoists, the followers of Pot Pot, Castro, et al...

[seer]

I did not misunderstand. The Violence against Jews under Stalin and Hitler were committed enthusiastically regardless of the views of the despotic rulers. This also occurred in Yugoslavia in more recent history except the victims were Muslims. Jews were considered 'Christ killers' and the passion plays in Europe fomented violence against the Jews.

You lie again Shuny, show me where Christians were doing the dirty work against Jews for Stalin.

[shunyadragon]

You lie again Shuny, show me where Christians were doing the dirty work against Jews for Stalin.

Historical records, these countries were predominately Christian.

[shunyadragon]

That is a lie, was speaking of the Stalinists, the Maoists, the followers of Pot Pot, Castro, et al...

I am referring to Europe. Germany and Russia are predominately Christian and remain so today.

[Rational Gaze]

I am referring to Europe. Germany and Russia are predominately Christian and remain so today.

This is absolutely and unremittingly false, and you know it.

[shunyadragon]

This is absolutely and unremittingly false, and you know it.

Not false at all pogroms ethnic and religious cleansing and persecution of Jews by Christians were common throughout the whole history of Europe since Rome regardless of who the ruling despot was, king emperor or dictator. In recent history it was Muslims in Yugoslavia.