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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Infinity and Kalam

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  • ..."and find yourself embedded in purely empty space..."

    Right. The space however would be timeless, correct? It would be the blank slate so to speak that all particles and such would fill later on.

    At least this is my thinking at the moment.

    I've also read that the idea that space is expanding is debatable. If space is timeless and uncaused, then it's not really expanding.

    The space is what I personally am interested in at the moment. It is at least a starting place for me to understand something, even if it's all wrong. I'll abandon those ideas later, but for now, what I have in my simulation (my thinking, reasoning, etc), is that space, the area, has always been there, uncaused and Eternal. The space itself is not really doing anything, so it's not a relevant question to even asked what "caused" space.

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    • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
      ..."and find yourself embedded in purely empty space..."

      Right. The space however would be timeless, correct? It would be the blank slate so to speak that all particles and such would fill later on.
      Carefull, it is not 'This space,' and not something would later fill on. This description is very awkward and does not reflect the contemporary science of Physics and Quantum MEchanics.

      At least this is my thinking at the moment.

      I've also read that the idea that space is expanding is debatable. If space is timeless and uncaused, then it's not really expanding.
      No, the expansion of the universe is not debatable. References please. What is expanding is NOT the Quantum Vacuum, but the time/space macro world of our universe.

      I

      The space is what I personally am interested in at the moment. It is at least a starting place for me to understand something, even if it's all wrong. I'll abandon those ideas later, but for now, what I have in my simulation (my thinking, reasoning, etc), is that space, the area, has always been there, uncaused and Eternal. The space itself is not really doing anything, so it's not a relevant question to even asked what "caused" space.
      This would be a Theological/philosophical ' belief based on a Newtonian world. and not the science of contemporary Physics and Quantum Mechanics. By the objective verifiable evidence the only known cause is Natural Laws.

      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • According to Astrid Lambrecht (2002): "When one empties out a space of all matter and lowers the temperature to absolute zero, one produces in a Gedankenexperiment [thought experiment] the quantum vacuum state."[1]

        From this, I gather that if you take space, and empty it of all physical properties, the result is a quantum state.

        Does this collapse the space? What happens to the space if it's emptied?


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_state


        In fact, the energy of a cubic centimeter of empty space has been calculated figuratively to be one trillionth of an erg (or 0.6 eV).[8

        Here again, "empty space" is being referenced.


        The empty space is my main interest at the moment. I feel like it may hold the keys to further understanding.
        Last edited by Machinist; 11-21-2021, 09:32 AM.

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        • In fact, the energy of a cubic centimeter of empty space has been calculated figuratively to be one trillionth of an erg (or 0.6 eV).[8


          If you can extract energy out of empty space...

          What does that even mean? If space itself has energy, then what is this energy? Is this saying that space itself is made of something? It doesn't seem like it's made of anything. It's just there. It is the something rather than nothing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post


            A Theological apologetic argument unrically misrepresenting Vileknin's scientific view of the nature of our physical existence based on a religious agenda. It does not take into consideration Vilenkin's science of Quantum Mechanics and the possible multiverse.
            And in Vileknin's and Guth's view even if the multiverse did exist it could not be past eternal. But me and Machinist were speaking Vileknin's view that the universe could come about without a cause.

            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • I propose a new cosmological model:

              Space itself is what it is. It is the most fundamental essence of existence. It is uncaused and uncreated. It is Infinite.

              It is not expanding.

              There is no astronomical amount of energy that can be extracted from a cubic cm of space. That is merely creative worldbuilding, so to this "expansion".

              If you can get to the reality of God through an Ontological Argument, then you can get to what is not through an Ontological argument. And what is not, is this "nothing". You cannot imagine a nothingness. There is something and this something has always existed. Existence has always existed. To say that the Universe came from nothing is to say that existence came from non-existence.



              Now, what is wrong with this model?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                Now, what is wrong with this model?
                How would you test it?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  How would you test it?
                  How do you test any of these models? Seriously...this model that there is some astronomical amount of energy within a square cm of space? Has anyone ever conducted such a test? Or does it just all work out mathematically. What if all these mathematical models were wrong? What if they are no more than modern day equivalents of horses pulling the sun across the sky?


                  If space is infinite...I am talking about the space that you traverse when you walk from your desk to the door...that space...if it continues in all directions into infinity...


                  and all these models about expansion and black holes are nothing more than clever attempts to make at least some sense of the unknown...


                  and there is nothing but space...just an infinite ganzfeld of space...


                  it would be a nothingness of sorts...just a blank slate so to speak, infinite an uncreated.

                  Perhaps we could test out such a model by looking at the implications of such a reality.

                  Someone said earlier that actual infinities were impossible. Are they? Or are they just saying so because some ancient philosopher said so? What is it about infinity that makes it impossible? Can you explain that simply?

                  One thing that nothingness and infinity have in common is that there is no ontology for either. They both evoke the same inner subjective state when I ponder either of them. It feels like a liars paradox. Infinity is horror to me; but if I think of the border of space, then I ask what's on the other side? Nothing? I can't imagine that either.

                  Comment


                  • Another thought I just had that seems relevant to what i'm driving at here:

                    there is primacy of space over matter. You can have space with no matter, but not matter with no space.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post

                      And in Vileknin's and Guth's view even if the multiverse did exist it could not be past eternal.
                      Your over stating Vilenkin and Guth'e conclusion that the multiverse has a beginning. It does not translate to our physical existence 'cannot be past eternal.' This is part of Their model and hypothesis for the multiverse, and there is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for this/ It is not accepted by other scientists. because their models and hypothesis have different conclusions, because there is no evidence,

                      But me and Machinist were speaking Vilenkin's view that the universe could come about without a cause.
                      This is a 'red herring,' because what Vilenkin, Guth and others believe is that there is an adequate explanation fo the nature of our physical existence came about by Natural Laws and natural processes, without any evidence of an outside 'cause.' This a given for all the sciences based on Methodological Naturalism, because it is beyond the scope of science and there is no objective verifiable evidence for an outside 'cause.' The belief in an outside 'cuse' is a Theological/philosophical belief not science.



                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                        Your over stating Vilenkin and Guth'e conclusion that the multiverse has a beginning. It does not translate to our physical existence 'cannot be past eternal.' This is part of Their model and hypothesis for the multiverse, and there is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for this/ It is not accepted by other scientists. because their models and hypothesis have different conclusions, because there is no evidence,
                        No Shuny they do say that the multiverse can't be past eternal. They say nothing about imaginary things, like unicorns...



                        This is a 'red herring,' because what Vilenkin, Guth and others believe is that there is an adequate explanation fo the nature of our physical existence came about by Natural Laws and natural processes, without any evidence of an outside 'cause.' This a given for all the sciences based on Methodological Naturalism, because it is beyond the scope of science and there is no objective verifiable evidence for an outside 'cause.' The belief in an outside 'cuse' is a Theological/philosophical belief not science.
                        Well no, you are not getting it.- Vilenkin's model (not inflation theory) says that the universe could come into being WITHOUT A CAUSE. No natural process there...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          I propose a new cosmological model:

                          Space itself is what it is. It is the most fundamental essence of existence. It is uncaused and uncreated. It is Infinite.

                          It is not expanding.

                          There is no astronomical amount of energy that can be extracted from a cubic cm of space. That is merely creative worldbuilding, so to this "expansion".

                          If you can get to the reality of God through an Ontological Argument, then you can get to what is not through an Ontological argument. And what is not, is this "nothing". You cannot imagine a nothingness. There is something and this something has always existed. Existence has always existed. To say that the Universe came from nothing is to say that existence came from non-existence.



                          Now, what is wrong with this model?
                          This hypothesis would not be supported by 'objective verifiable evidence, The ultimate question as to whether our physical existence has an ultimate physical beginning or not is would be a Theological/philosophical question, and unanswerable by science,

                          There is abundant consistent abundant evidence our universe is expanding.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            OK, I get it. Though one wonders how something could come into being without a cause. As far as as having a cause, why not God? Since there is good reason to believe that matter and energy can't be past eternal.

                            https://thinkingtobelieve.com/2012/0...d-a-beginning/
                            Sure, why not God? But also, why not the laws of quantum mechanics? Or, why not another universe, entirely different from our own?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              This hypothesis would not be supported by 'objective verifiable evidence, The ultimate question as to whether our physical existence has an ultimate physical beginning or not is would be a Theological/philosophical question, and unanswerable by science,

                              There is abundant consistent abundant evidence our universe is expanding.
                              Its merely a thought experiment for my own personal edification. I'll cross the evidence that you speak of when I get there. I'm not wanting to move to fast right now... just beginning with a blank slate. Later on, i'll have to figure out how matter came into being from the nothingness of infinite space, how to work God in there, consciousness, gravity, etc.

                              Can you suspend your beliefs and take a leap with me here? This is just a blank slate, a loading program, and I would appreciate if others would help me think it through.





                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                Sure, why not God? But also, why not the laws of quantum mechanics? Or, why not another universe, entirely different from our own?
                                How would the laws of quantum mechanics exist apart from a mind? They are not physical things. Another universe? Possible - but that would require a scientific justification, since it is material.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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