Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Infinity and Kalam

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Again, if I don't believe that unicorns exist is that also an argument from ignorance? Yes or no? And again there are reason to think that matter and energy can't be past eternal, even though your RELIGION requires it: https://inference-review.com/article...f-the-universe
    As I said before; please avoid 'arguing from ignorance' to support your assertions, and present the evidence.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      As I said before; please avoid 'arguing from ignorance' to support your assertions, and present the evidence.
      I can't present evidence that unicorns don't exist either. So what is your point.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
        In this context does "nothing" mean "no space"?

        I'm thinking of the 1' x 1' x1' cube of space before me here. That space. Has it always been there?

        And "quantum vacuum"...does this mean just space that is empty of all quantum stuff, all forces, etc? But the space itself is there?

        Or are you talking about an Vilenkin' where there is not even space?
        Vilenkin is speaking of absolutely nothing because the universe has no cause. In other words it was not cause by a preexisting condition.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          Vilenkin is speaking of absolutely nothing because the universe has no cause. In other words it was not cause by a preexisting condition.
          There had to have been something there. There just had to be. It must have been something like a spring and then everything went SPRONG!

          Comment


          • If something came from nothing, then that nothing was not truly nothing in the absolute sense. There had to have been the seeds of existence within the "nothingness" of non-existence.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

              There had to have been something there. There just had to be. It must have been something like a spring and then everything went SPRONG!
              Except that is not what Vilenkin is saying.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Is there a cosmological model in the history of the something-from-nothing school, where the "nothingness" is infinite space, but "nothing" in it? That is, space would be eternal and infinite, but nothing would fill it...no matter, no gravitational forces, no light, no time...just a spatial void.

                So I am making a distinction between an absolute nothing and a spatial nothing. Has any something-from-nothing cosmologist throughout the ages, ever proposed a model where "nothing" was defined as this spatial nothing?

                It's like saying its the same an the Universe...minus all the stuff that makes up the Universe. Just space.

                Now the problem wouldn't be any easier. One would still be left with the problem that something came from nothing. You'd still have to wonder where it all came from...or who it all came from...or when.

                I'm just thinking of infinite space. Self existent, uncaused, uncreated, and not the stuff that fills the space and the laws that govern the activity that takes place. Just space.

                Does anyone on this thread have any thoughts about this idea, and is there any reason as to why space couldn't be uncaused?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Vilenkin is speaking of absolutely nothing because the universe has no cause. In other words it was not cause by a preexisting condition.

                  Terrible dishonesr misrepresentation of Vilenkin's science.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post


                    Terrible dishonesr misrepresentation of Vilenkin's science.
                    That is a lie Shuny, Vilenkin believes that a universe can come into being without a cause.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post

                      OK, I get it. Though one wonders how something could come into being without a cause. As far as as having a cause, why not God? Since there is good reason to believe that matter and energy can't be past eternal.

                      https://thinkingtobelieve.com/2012/0...d-a-beginning/

                      A Theological apologetic argument unrically misrepresenting Vileknin's scientific view of the nature of our physical existence based on a religious agenda. It does not take into consideration Vilenkin's science of Quantum Mechanics and the possible multiverse.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                        In this context does "nothing" mean "no space"?

                        I'm thinking of the 1' x 1' x1' cube of space before me here. That space. Has it always been there?

                        And "quantum vacuum"...does this mean just space that is empty of all quantum stuff, all forces, etc? But the space itself is there?

                        Or are you talking about an absolute nothing where there is not even space?
                        Your title Machinist reflects your Newtonian mechanical view of our physical existence and a lack of understanding of Quantum Mechanics and the Quantum Vacuum like seer . I previously posted a clear specific definition fot the Quantum Vacuum. You either ignored the scientific definition or have English reading comprehension issues,

                        Again . . . from a previous post:
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Hi Shuny, while you're here, what is your thoughts on my last post?

                          Is there a view out there somewhere where space is the fundamental self existent?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                            Your title Machinist reflects your Newtonian mechanical view of our physical existence and a lack of understanding of Quantum Mechanics and the Quantum Vacuum like seer . I previously posted a clear specific definition fot the Quantum Vacuum. You either ignored the scientific definition or have English reading comprehension issues,

                            Again . . . from a previous post:
                            In quantum field theory, the quantum vacuum state (also called the quantum vacuum or vacuum state) is the quantum state with the lowest possible energy. Generally, it contains no physical particles. The word Zero-point field is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of a quantized field which is completely individual.

                            According to present-day understanding of what is called the vacuum state or the quantum vacuum, it is "by no means a simple empty space".[1][2] According to quantum mechanics, the vacuum state is not truly empty but instead contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of the quantum field.[3][4][5]



                            It is by no means a simple empty space...it is not truly empty.

                            So there is at the very least, space. Space that is ultimately filled with particles and forces, correct?

                            I can kinda see how space is uncaused, because it's not really a "thing".

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              Your title Machinist reflects your Newtonian mechanical view of our physical existence and a lack of understanding of Quantum Mechanics and the Quantum Vacuum like seer . I previously posted a clear specific definition fot the Quantum Vacuum. You either ignored the scientific definition or have English reading comprehension issues,

                              Again . . . from a previous post:
                              Sorry for th missing reference from the previos post.

                              This thread is an experience in the 'Groundhog Day' repetition of past threads over the years concerning rhe nature of 'nothing; in physics called Quantum Vacuum, where your stuck in a Newtonian mechanical world of time/space, beginnings. You persist in dishonest misrepresentation, selective misleading citations to justify a religious agenda,

                              The 'nothing' in Physics is what is defined as the 'Quantum Vacuum' as previously defined in a specific reference:

                              Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/09/22/what-is-the-physics-of-nothing/?sh=703ed475f838


                              What Is The Physics Of Nothing?

                              Ethan Siegel

                              If you take everything away from a part of the Universe, what are you left with? You'd assume the answer is "nothing," but perhaps that's not quite right. You can take all the particles and antiparticles away, all the various types of radiation, all the curvature of space and ripples of gravitational waves away, and find yourself embedded in purely empty space, where there's nothing at all for you to interact with. Yet, is that really "nothing," or is there still something there?

                              A common way to look at this state is to call it the quantum vacuum. It's the lowest-energy state of empty space, and yet one of the puzzling things that quantum physics teaches us is that the zero-point energy, or the ground state of the Universe, isn't actually a state of zero energy. On the contrary, it's a finite, positive value that is:

                              © Copyright Original Source





                              As referenced in post #157 Vilenkin described and defined the 'nothing' of Physics, and described a 'possible' multiverse with a past and a future. Please respond to post #157. The reference to 'no space' refers to the nature of the Quantum Vacuum as not having the 'time/space as in our macro universe. It is timeless. The Quantum Mechanics defines the Quantum Vacuum as having the zero energy level. Something that can be described defined and confirmed by the science of Quantum Mechanics is NOT the Theological/philosophical 'absolute nothing'


                              No space refers ro NO three dimensional time/space of our oniverse, and not absolutely nothing. Quantum gravity qand Energy and the zero level exists in the Quantum Vacuum
                              .
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-21-2021, 07:24 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                                In quantum field theory, the quantum vacuum state (also called the quantum vacuum or vacuum state) is the quantum state with the lowest possible energy. Generally, it contains no physical particles. The word Zero-point field is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of a quantized field which is completely individual.

                                According to present-day understanding of what is called the vacuum state or the quantum vacuum, it is "by no means a simple empty space".[1][2] According to quantum mechanics, the vacuum state is not truly empty but instead contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of the quantum field.[3][4][5]



                                It is by no means a simple empty space...it is not truly empty.

                                So there is at the very least, space. Space that is ultimately filled with particles and forces, correct?

                                I can kinda see how space is uncaused, because it's not really a "thing".
                                As defined Quantum Vacuum is a real thing observed and confirmed by Quantum Mechanics as defined in the previous posts. The cause is Natural Laws as determined and confirmed by science.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                160 responses
                                508 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X