Determinism And Rationality.

[shunyadragon]

You don't get to disagree unless you want to contradict you faith. Our intellect, which includes our degree of self-awareness, did not come about by natural means. Whatever primitive rational abilities animals may have, they could never develop to the degree that humans have, because what human have is God given and immaterial.

As per the topic of the thread there is objective verifiable evidence that higher animals have attributes of self-awareness and intellect.
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I never claimed animals could attaain the level of intellect, self awareness of humans, but nonetheless I believe the soul is a separate identity from the human mind and body, and represents the greatest state of intelect and self awareness as described in the Baha'i writings, as cited.

[Tassman]

Ask Tass, he is the one asking for evidence of a non-material universe. But by its nature I think the supernatural could only be known by experience, or historical accounts. Not something you could put under a microscope.

Yes, as I said. The supposed existence of the supernatural can only be subjective, i.e. a view of things NOT based on objective, verifiable evidence. In short, an act of faith. There is no good reason why one would believe such claims made by another.

[Stoic]

Perhaps, but I have never seen that.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't expect much better evidence for a very improbable claim than for a run of the mill claim, as long as the claims aren't regarding religion.

I could pretty much discount all but number six. But that is the point isn't, the materialist could always deny the supernatural - based on a naturalistic philosophy that is unprovable, and on severely limited knowledge and experience.

It isn't a matter of what you could discount, but of what I could discount, which is basically none of them. The supernatural is something that I would have to experience myself in order to believe it. And nothing in my experience points to anything even slightly supernatural.

[seer]

As per the topic of the thread there is objective verifiable evidence that higher animals have attributes of self-awareness and intellect.
.
I never claimed animals could attaain the level of intellect, self awareness of humans, but nonetheless I believe the soul is a separate identity from the human mind and body, and represents the greatest state of intelect and self awareness as described in the Baha'i writings, as cited.

Well Shuny, our intellect and thoughts and self awareness are the mind, according to your religion. And attributes of the rational, immaterial soul. And that soul is not the result of natural processes. What makes a human, well human, is supernatural.

[seer]

It isn't a matter of what you could discount, but of what I could discount, which is basically none of them. The supernatural is something that I would have to experience myself in order to believe it. And nothing in my experience points to anything even slightly supernatural.

Well given your six possible explanations for my fern story I suspect you could apply one of them to a supernatural event that you experienced, and quickly discount it.

[shunyadragon]

Well Shuny, our intellect and thoughts and self awareness are the mind, according to your religion. And attributes of the rational, immaterial soul. And that soul is not the result of natural processes. What makes a human, well human, is supernatural.

As per the topic of the thread there is objective verifiable evidence that higher animals have attributes of self-awareness and intellect.
.
I never claimed animals could attaain the level of intellect, self awareness of humans, but nonetheless I believe the soul is a separate identity from the human mind and body, and represents the greatest state of intelect and self awareness as described in the Baha'i writings, as cited.

[Stoic]

Well given your six possible explanations for my fern story I suspect you could apply one of them to a supernatural event that you experienced, and quickly discount it.

True.

[seer]

True.

So one's world view determines what one can accept or not. So experiencing the supernatural wouldn't change your mind at all.

[seer]

As per the topic of the thread there is objective verifiable evidence that higher animals have attributes of self-awareness and intellect.
.
I never claimed animals could attaain the level of intellect, self awareness of humans, but nonetheless I believe the soul is a separate identity from the human mind and body, and represents the greatest state of intelect and self awareness as described in the Baha'i writings, as cited.

I never argued that animals couldn't have a degree of self-awareness or intellect, my fox hound is quite clever. But what we have is not only greater in degree, but in kind because what we have is supernatural. And again you contradict your religion, the mind is the expression of the rational soul. They are not separate.

[Stoic]

So one's world view determines what one can accept or not. So experiencing the supernatural wouldn't change your mind at all.

That's hard to say, since I haven't had that experience.

[seer]

That's hard to say, since I haven't had that experience.

Well if you saw Moses raise his staff and part the Red Sea you could always pawn it off on Aliens.

[JimL]

To my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.

Evolution is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that, not being an agent, care nothing about anything. Human rationality is governed by data that of itself cares nothing about anything.

[seer]

Evolution is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that, not being an agent, care nothing about anything. Human rationality is governed by data that of itself cares nothing about anything.

So why did these non-rational forces that care for nothing determine us to care?

[Stoic]

So why did these non-rational forces that care for nothing determine us to care?

Given that they are non-rational, it would be better to ask "how" than "why."

But I'm sure you've heard of evolution.

[Stoic]

Well if you saw Moses raise his staff and part the Red Sea you could always pawn it off on Aliens.

Sure, but there would be a thought in the back of my mind that it might really be supernatural.

Just like if I accepted it as supernatural, there would be a thought in the back of my mind that it might really be aliens.

But I can worry about that when it happens.