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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Determinism And Rationality.

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  • Determinism And Rationality.

    To my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    To my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.
    crickets

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
      crickets
      Strange since so many high profile atheists are pushing determinism now a days...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        To my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.
        I object ot 'governed and directed' too anthropomorphic.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Strange since so many high profile atheists are pushing determinism now a days...
          Not strange at all. Atheists believe in a strictly naturalist perspective. Science and the predictability of theories and hypothesis confirms that our physical nature is deterministic, but not rigidly and mechanistically Newtonian Deterministic.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Not strange at all. Atheists believe in a strictly naturalist perspective. Science and the predictability of theories and hypothesis confirms that our physical nature is deterministic, but not rigidly and mechanistically Newtonian Deterministic.
            If our physical nature is deterministic then the point in my OP follows.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              To my deterministic friends, would you agree with this statement: Human rationality is ultimately governed and directed by non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth.
              Nope. I wouldn't agree.
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                Nope. I wouldn't agree.
                Which part? And why?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Which part? And why?
                  For one thing, any attempt to condense very complex notions into a single sentence with loose vocabulary is going to be problematic. It would be like someone asking a Christian, "Do you believe God sacrificed God to God in order for God to forgive people of God's condemnation?" There are ways to interpret that statement which a Christian might agree with, and there are ways to interpret it which most Christians would find repugnant.

                  In particular, though, I would specifically say that "non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth" is very misleading. If you mean that the processes being described do not perform the act of reasoning, in and of themselves, I'll agree. However, I would not say that these forces are irrational. Similarly, while they certainly don't perform the act of caring, that doesn't preclude them from being ordered toward truth.
                  "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                  --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                    In particular, though, I would specifically say that "non-rational forces that care nothing for the concept of truth" is very misleading. If you mean that the processes being described do not perform the act of reasoning, in and of themselves, I'll agree. However, I would not say that these forces are irrational. Similarly, while they certainly don't perform the act of caring, that doesn't preclude them from being ordered toward truth.
                    I wouldn't use the term irrational, I would say non-rational. So in what sense would non-rational or, non-reasoning, forces be aimed at truth.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I wouldn't use the term irrational, I would say non-rational.
                      That, again, seems like very loose vocabulary to me. By "non-rational," do you simply mean that these things cannot perform the act of reasoning? Or does "non-rational" mean more than that, to you?

                      So in what sense would non-rational or, non-reasoning, forces be aimed at truth.
                      In the sense that "truth" is that which corresponds to reality and these processes are a part of reality.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        That, again, seems like very loose vocabulary to me. By "non-rational," do you simply mean that these things cannot perform the act of reasoning? Or does "non-rational" mean more than that, to you?

                        In the sense that "truth" is that which corresponds to reality and these processes are a part of reality.
                        We could use non-reasoning. And we would be speaking of truths as in propositional truths. The non-reasoning forces of nature do not, nor can not, aim at such propositional truths since they are conceptual by nature. But it goes deeper than that. If determinism is true we don't believe a thing because it is true, we believe it because we were determined to. The thing may be true, but that has no bearing on why we believe it.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          We could use non-reasoning.
                          Cool. That's one bit of semantics out of the way, then.

                          And we would be speaking of truths as in propositional truths.
                          Then you aren't talking about Truth, as a concept, you are talking about truth valuation.

                          The non-reasoning forces of nature do not, nor can not, aim at such propositional truths since they are conceptual by nature.
                          I'll agree that we are talking about things which cannot evaluate the truth of a proposition.

                          But it goes deeper than that. If determinism is true we don't believe a thing because it is true, we believe it because we were determined to.
                          These are not mutually exclusive. We can be determined to believe a proposition because of the truth of that proposition.

                          The thing may be true, but that has no bearing on why we believe it.
                          Determinism entails that an outcome necessarily arises from its given input parameters. There's no reason why a proposition's truth cannot be one of those input parameters. In such a case, it most certainly could have a bearing on why we believe it.
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            Then you aren't talking about Truth, as a concept, you are talking about truth valuation.
                            I'm not sure that isn't merely semantics.

                            I'll agree that we are talking about things which cannot evaluate the truth of a proposition.
                            Good.

                            These are not mutually exclusive. We can be determined to believe a proposition because of the truth of that proposition.
                            What determines this? The non-reasoning forces of nature?


                            Determinism entails that an outcome necessarily arises from its given input parameters. There's no reason why a proposition's truth cannot be one of those input parameters. In such a case, it most certainly could have a bearing on why we believe it.
                            How? If the non-reasoning forces of nature cannot evaluate the truth of a proposition?
                            Last edited by seer; 05-09-2020, 04:33 PM.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post

                              Then you aren't talking about Truth, as a concept, you are talking about truth valuation.
                              What's your definition of truth as a concept?



                              These are not mutually exclusive. We can be determined to believe a proposition because of the truth of that proposition.
                              But that assumes that reasons for belief are a kind of cause. Reasons are normative and purposive; causes are not. And even if that were somehow the case, which I doubt, it's operating at the wrong level of description. Imagine if you were to ask me why I decided to do something and I said "Because I'm determined to." The explanatory answer is to cite the reasons why I chose to do that thing. If I'm determined to do whatever I choose to do, then my determinism drops out as an illuminating explanation for my choices.

                              Determinism entails that an outcome necessarily arises from its given input parameters. There's no reason why a proposition's truth cannot be one of those input parameters. In such a case, it most certainly could have a bearing on why we believe it.
                              That assumes again that reasons are on all fours with causes, but there are a number of 'reasons' to believe otherwise.

                              Comment

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