Originally posted by seer
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Beauty Of Determinism!
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Originally posted by Jichard View PostPure, unrepentant misrepresentation. Daniel Dennett does not make a good case for libertarian free will. In fact, Dennett rejects there being libertarian free will. He rejects the idea that quantum indeterminacy is required for free will and he rejects the idea that quantum indeterminacy can be harnessed in some way that yields free will. He makes this painfully clear in his book Freedom Evolves, especially in its critique of the work of Robert Kane.
I mean, he literally writes things like:
Libertarians have long insisted that the compatibilist sorts of free will I am describing and defending are not the real thing at all, and not even an acceptable substitute for the real thing [...] According to us compatibilists, libertarians seem to think that you can have free will only if you can engage in what we might call moral levitation. Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to levitate - and then to dash off in any direction with the merest flick of a whim? I'd love to be able to do that, but I can't. It's impossible. (Freedom Evolves, page 101).
[...]
An examination of the best positive case for libertarianism shows that it cannot find a defensible location for indeterminism within the decision-making processes of a responsible agent. Since it cannot motivate its defining requirement, we can leave indeterminism behind and consider more realisitic requirements for freedom, and how they could have evolved (Freedom Evolves, 136-137)."
So, once again, seer willfully misrepresents sources. Typical.
This result is not just what the libertarian is looking for, but it is a useful result nevertheless. It shows that we can indeed install indeterminism in the internal causal chains affecting human behavior at the macroscopic level while preserving the intelligibility of practical deliberation that the libertarian requires. We may have good reasons from other quarters for embracing determinism, but we need not fear that macroscopic indeterminism in human behavior would of necessity rob our lives of intelligibility by producing chaos."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, everything is not determined unless you are proposing something like Calvinism. Determinism does not propose that 'everything is determined.' Compatibilism includes Determinism and the potential of Free Will, and room for freedom.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Jichard View Postsuch as rational deliberation, conscious consideration of beliefs and desires, formation of higher-order volitions, planning, and the like
Let me quote Peter van Inwagen
A person has free will if he is often in positions like these: he must now speak or be silent, and he can now speak and can now remain silent; he must attempt to rescue a drowning child or else go for help, and he is able to attempt to rescue the child and able to go for help; he must now resign his chairmanship or else lie to the members; and he has it within his power to resign and he has it within his power to lie.Last edited by seer; 11-05-2015, 07:10 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, Determinism allows for the potential of Free Will, and room for freedom.
So, what's the problem?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, determinism does not allow for freedom. Only if there are areas where there is no determinism is there a possibility for freedom.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis is only the case for 'hard determinism' in the extreme case. I terms of 'soft-determinism' as defined by William James and in compatibilism.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI have no idea what your point is. Is soft-determinism not determinism? What do you mean by soft? How does that lead to genuine freedom?
The question of the nature of our will is still not objectively answered by either science, philosophy nor theologians as to what degree humans have Free Will. It is pretty well accepted that the concept of Libertarian Free Will does not reflect the reality of the nature of human will. To some degree it has been demonstrated that our decision making process is not free, but predetermined by a chain of circumstances. To what extent are our decisions predetermined is not at present known.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-05-2015, 11:45 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post'Soft determinism' is determinism by definition. Soft-determinism means there is room for freedom and potential of Free Will, and it is roughly equivalent to compatibilism. You need to read further and understand more sources on the philosophy of will. Read some sources like those on compatibilism and authors like William James to understand a world outside your own barbed wire fence.
Soft determinism (or compatibilism) is the position or view that causal determinism is true, but we still act as free, morally responsible agents when, in the absence of external constraints, our actions are caused by our desires.
The question of the nature of our will is still not objectively answered by either science, philosophy nor theologians as to what degree humans have Free Will. It is pretty well accepted that the concept of Libertarian Free Will does not reflect the reality of the nature of human will. To some degree it has been demonstrated that our decision making process is not free, but predetermined by a chain of circumstances. To what extent are our decisions predetermined is not at present known.Last edited by seer; 11-05-2015, 12:10 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI have no idea what your point is. Is soft-determinism not determinism? What do you mean by soft? How does that lead to genuine freedom?
It has been well documented and determined scientifically that libertarian free will is not a viable view.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
If our desires are determined, and we can't do otherwise, or the opposite, in any given situation, then we are just as determined. Given this definition a monkey would be free.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPlease explain what you mean by 'genuine freedom.' Are you referring to libertarian free will?
Peter van Inwagen:
A person has free will if he is often in positions like these: he must now speak or be silent, and he can now speak and can now remain silent; he must attempt to rescue a drowning child or else go for help, and he is able to attempt to rescue the child and able to go for help; he must now resign his chairmanship or else lie to the members; and he has it within his power to resign and he has it within his power to lie.
It has been well documented and determined scientifically that libertarian free will is not a viable view.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWell it would have the illusion of freedom, just as we do.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostStop being an idiot Shuny, I have read a number of these sources. That is why I'm asking the question. Soft-determinism is still determinism:
If our desires are determined, and we can't do otherwise, or the opposite, in any given situation, then we are just as determined. Given this definition a monkey would be free.
So now you deny freedom of the will.
If you chose to wear a red shirt, you will make the choice within a limited selection of shirts you desired to buy. Your desires ultimate decided what shirts and clothing you buy, and what you chose to buy. You still exercise your free will within the constraints of what you desire. What you desire is ultimate decided by many factors not in your control, like your culture and choice of religion, which in turn is in a large part determined for you by the culture and family you were raised in.
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