The Beauty Of Determinism!

[shunyadragon]

What are you talking about? Is everything determined or not? If not, then there is room for freedom, if not then there isn't.

No, everything is not determined unless you are proposing something like Calvinism. Determinism does not propose that 'everything is determined.' Compatibilism includes Determinism and the potential of Free Will, and room for freedom.

[seer]

Pure, unrepentant misrepresentation. Daniel Dennett does not make a good case for libertarian free will. In fact, Dennett rejects there being libertarian free will. He rejects the idea that quantum indeterminacy is required for free will and he rejects the idea that quantum indeterminacy can be harnessed in some way that yields free will. He makes this painfully clear in his book Freedom Evolves, especially in its critique of the work of Robert Kane.

I mean, he literally writes things like:

Libertarians have long insisted that the compatibilist sorts of free will I am describing and defending are not the real thing at all, and not even an acceptable substitute for the real thing [...] According to us compatibilists, libertarians seem to think that you can have free will only if you can engage in what we might call moral levitation. Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to levitate - and then to dash off in any direction with the merest flick of a whim? I'd love to be able to do that, but I can't. It's impossible. (Freedom Evolves, page 101).

[...]

An examination of the best positive case for libertarianism shows that it cannot find a defensible location for indeterminism within the decision-making processes of a responsible agent. Since it cannot motivate its defining requirement, we can leave indeterminism behind and consider more realisitic requirements for freedom, and how they could have evolved (Freedom Evolves, 136-137)."

So, once again, seer willfully misrepresents sources. Typical.

Nonsense Jichard, Dennett himself says that his model would give what the libertarians want - would it satisfy all libertarians - doubtful.

This result is not just what the libertarian is looking for, but it is a useful result nevertheless. It shows that we can indeed install indeterminism in the internal causal chains affecting human behavior at the macroscopic level while preserving the intelligibility of practical deliberation that the libertarian requires. We may have good reasons from other quarters for embracing determinism, but we need not fear that macroscopic indeterminism in human behavior would of necessity rob our lives of intelligibility by producing chaos."

And why are you still in my threads?

[seer]

No, everything is not determined unless you are proposing something like Calvinism. Determinism does not propose that 'everything is determined.' Compatibilism includes Determinism and the potential of Free Will, and room for freedom.

Good so everything is not determined. Then that does leave room for freedom.

[seer]

such as rational deliberation, conscious consideration of beliefs and desires, formation of higher-order volitions, planning, and the like

Then tell me how are these things; rational deliberation, conscious considerations, planning, etc... not just as determined as anything else - in what sense are they FREE? This is what I mean, you are not defining what free will means, in what sense are we free.

Let me quote Peter van Inwagen

A person has free will if he is often in positions like these: he must now speak or be silent, and he can now speak and can now remain silent; he must attempt to rescue a drowning child or else go for help, and he is able to attempt to rescue the child and able to go for help; he must now resign his chairmanship or else lie to the members; and he has it within his power to resign and he has it within his power to lie.

Do you agree, disagree?

[shunyadragon]

Good so everything is not determined. Then that does leave room for freedom.

Yes, Determinism allows for the potential of Free Will, and room for freedom.

So, what's the problem?

[seer]

Yes, Determinism allows for the potential of Free Will, and room for freedom.

So, what's the problem?

No, determinism does not allow for freedom. Only if there are areas where there is no determinism is there a possibility for freedom.

[shunyadragon]

No, determinism does not allow for freedom. Only if there are areas where there is no determinism is there a possibility for freedom.

This is only the case for 'hard determinism' in the extreme case. I terms of 'soft-determinism' as defined by William James and in compatibilism.

[seer]

This is only the case for 'hard determinism' in the extreme case. I terms of 'soft-determinism' as defined by William James and in compatibilism.

I have no idea what your point is. Is soft-determinism not determinism? What do you mean by soft? How does that lead to genuine freedom?

[shunyadragon]

I have no idea what your point is. Is soft-determinism not determinism? What do you mean by soft? How does that lead to genuine freedom?

'Soft determinism' is determinism by definition. Soft-determinism means there is room for freedom and potential of Free Will, and it is roughly equivalent to compatibilism. You need to read further and understand more sources on the philosophy of will. Read some sources like those on compatibilism and authors like William James to understand a world outside your own barbed wire fence.

The question of the nature of our will is still not objectively answered by either science, philosophy nor theologians as to what degree humans have Free Will. It is pretty well accepted that the concept of Libertarian Free Will does not reflect the reality of the nature of human will. To some degree it has been demonstrated that our decision making process is not free, but predetermined by a chain of circumstances. To what extent are our decisions predetermined is not at present known.

[seer]

'Soft determinism' is determinism by definition. Soft-determinism means there is room for freedom and potential of Free Will, and it is roughly equivalent to compatibilism. You need to read further and understand more sources on the philosophy of will. Read some sources like those on compatibilism and authors like William James to understand a world outside your own barbed wire fence.

Stop being an idiot Shuny, I have read a number of these sources. That is why I'm asking the question. Soft-determinism is still determinism:

Soft determinism (or compatibilism) is the position or view that causal determinism is true, but we still act as free, morally responsible agents when, in the absence of external constraints, our actions are caused by our desires.

If our desires are determined, and we can't do otherwise, or the opposite, in any given situation, then we are just as determined. Given this definition a monkey would be free.

The question of the nature of our will is still not objectively answered by either science, philosophy nor theologians as to what degree humans have Free Will. It is pretty well accepted that the concept of Libertarian Free Will does not reflect the reality of the nature of human will. To some degree it has been demonstrated that our decision making process is not free, but predetermined by a chain of circumstances. To what extent are our decisions predetermined is not at present known.

So now you deny freedom of the will.

[shunyadragon]

I have no idea what your point is. Is soft-determinism not determinism? What do you mean by soft? How does that lead to genuine freedom?

Please explain what you mean by 'genuine freedom.' Are you referring to libertarian free will?

It has been well documented and determined scientifically that libertarian free will is not a viable view.

[Tassman]

If our desires are determined, and we can't do otherwise, or the opposite, in any given situation, then we are just as determined. Given this definition a monkey would be free.

Well it would have the illusion of freedom, just as we do. Do you have a problem with this? The behaviours and knowledge of all primates, including humans, are generated solely by the brain, and cannot be separated from that. There's no credible evidence of 'souls'. If you disagree give evidence-based reasons as to why.

[seer]

Please explain what you mean by 'genuine freedom.' Are you referring to libertarian free will?

I gave a definition in post 154:

Peter van Inwagen:

A person has free will if he is often in positions like these: he must now speak or be silent, and he can now speak and can now remain silent; he must attempt to rescue a drowning child or else go for help, and he is able to attempt to rescue the child and able to go for help; he must now resign his chairmanship or else lie to the members; and he has it within his power to resign and he has it within his power to lie.

In other words, for the most part we have the ability to do the opposite. I chose a red shirt this morning, but I had the power to choose differently. It was my choice, I was not locked into a specific direction or choice by antecedent conditions.

It has been well documented and determined scientifically that libertarian free will is not a viable view.

OK, so I will ask again - it what sense are we free with your soft-determinism? Please explain.

[seer]

Well it would have the illusion of freedom, just as we do.

And you have the illusion of being rational...

[shunyadragon]

Stop being an idiot Shuny, I have read a number of these sources. That is why I'm asking the question. Soft-determinism is still determinism:



If our desires are determined, and we can't do otherwise, or the opposite, in any given situation, then we are just as determined. Given this definition a monkey would be free.




So now you deny freedom of the will.

No, our desires represent the reasons we make choices.We still make choices.

If you chose to wear a red shirt, you will make the choice within a limited selection of shirts you desired to buy. Your desires ultimate decided what shirts and clothing you buy, and what you chose to buy. You still exercise your free will within the constraints of what you desire. What you desire is ultimate decided by many factors not in your control, like your culture and choice of religion, which in turn is in a large part determined for you by the culture and family you were raised in.