Is fear a good reason to become Christian

[firstfloor]

Apparently, Jerome got something right - should I abandon God because Jerome got it right?

Well, I serve the Risen Savior, and He's real in my life.

I have no objection to this part. But, when you say

You will have to face Him one day, and it won't be a pretty sight.

you are in fact performing your traditional chant and, unfortunately, demonstrating a profound lack of empathy for fellow human beings who find this sort of thing really quite offensive. Why? Because you falsely claim entitlement, having not checked your facts, to the feeling of superiority you must have if you think you are wheat and others are chaff fit only to be consumed with unquenchable fire. No doubt you will bring out the, again, traditional excuse to go on in your self imposed superiority (this is perhaps one reason why Christianity and Islam survive as well as they do).

[Cow Poke]

Truthfully, I never considered for even a second my faith based on what Jerome did or did not get right.

What we actually have and what Christians cling to is, in effect, the tradition that Jerome got it right (not that most Christians give Jerome a second thought or know anything about him). In fact, all of Christianity is tradition including all the traditions we have inherited concerning Jesus. It is also traditional for Christians to think that it goes deeper and that their intolerance of other faiths or none is more vital than it actually is.

Oh

I have no objection to this part. But, when you say

Here it comes

you are in fact performing your traditional chant

Ummm.... calling it a "chant" does nothing for your argument. I don't chant. Or rap.

and, unfortunately, demonstrating a profound lack of empathy for fellow human beings

OK, this is just nuts -- a "profound lack of empathy"? Then why do I spend so much time trying to help lost people find hope in Christ?

who find this sort of thing really quite offensive. Why?

Because the cross is offensive.

Because you falsely claim entitlement,

You falsely accuse me of falsely claiming entitlement.

having not checked your facts,

My faith is in the Resurrection of Jesus.

to the feeling of superiority

More nuttiness. I don't feel "superior", because I know I'm just a sinner saved by Grace.

you must have if you think you are wheat and others are chaff fit only to be consumed with unquenchable fire. No doubt you will bring out the, again, traditional excuse to go on in your self imposed superiority (this is perhaps one reason why Christianity and Islam survive as well as they do).

Perhaps you could deal with what I actually believe, instead of making up "chants" and "superiority" issues in me.

[firstfloor]

I contend that punishment focused religions are divisive and destructive and, if let loose, they lead by a short path to persecution and war. We see an example of such a destructive religion in Syria and Iraq. Christianity has itself been exactly there long ago but it could easily repeat the process.

This is how it starts:

Some of us are slaves to Christ, and some of us are slaves to sin.

You will have to face Him one day, and it won't be a pretty sight.

You cannot think that and not feel that you are better off than I am (superior). And what happens to sub-standard product? It is destroyed. Then you use poor old God to shift the blame.

[Cow Poke]

I contend that punishment focused religions are divisive and destructive

Christianity is not "punishment focused" - it is GRACE focused. So the rest of your post is just more willful ignorance.

[Cow Poke]

You cannot think that and not feel that you are better off than I am (superior).

And, ONCE AGAIN, only a moron would think that, for example, a lifeguard rescuing a drowning person thinks in those terms. It's just stupid. He/she would be thinking, "I'm in a good position to be of help to my fellow man".

Evangelism is one beggar telling another beggar where to find the Bread of Life. Your goofy attempts to make it otherwise are... well... goofy!

[firstfloor]

And, ONCE AGAIN, only a moron would think that, for example, a lifeguard rescuing a drowning person thinks in those terms. It's just stupid. He/she would be thinking, "I'm in a good position to be of help to my fellow man".

Evangelism is one beggar telling another beggar where to find the Bread of Life.

[Cow Poke]

It would be if it were not for the punishment aspect.

Were you an abused child? Why are you so fixated on "the punishment aspect"? :huhy:

No, it's actually not. You are focused on that aspect, obviously knowing NOTHING about what I preach, teach or believe.

It takes something generous and despoils it completely.

You don't know squat about Grace. It probably explains why you are like you are.

[firstfloor]

Christianity is not "punishment focused" - it is GRACE focused. So the rest of your post is just more willful ignorance.

[firstfloor]

Were you an abused child? Why are you so fixated on "the punishment aspect"? You don't know squat about Grace. It probably explains why you are like you are.

[Cow Poke]

Good grief CP. No. There is nothing wrong with me or your television set.

Well, my TV is doing fine.

I don't have to. I'm not the one fixated on punishment. The New Testament is all about GRACE. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

[Cow Poke]

It does not look like a very useful concept to me.

Of course, because you are fixated on punishment, and do not gasp Grace

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere.

[firstfloor]

Well, my TV is doing fine.

I don't have to. I'm not the one fixated on punishment. The New Testament is all about GRACE. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

[Cow Poke]

Well, if it stopped there we would have nothing to argue about except perhaps faith or works and maybe circumcision.

Circumcision was dealt with at the Jerusalem Council.

I'm going toward Christ, there is no better direction.

[Jichard]

So I'm curious: Is fear of death a good reason not to jump off a tall building?

First, fear of death, by itself, is not a good reason not to jump off a tall building. One would also need (at least) evidence for thinking that jumping off a tall building would likely lead to one's death. For example, if one were in a very safe harness when one jumped off the building and one was being paid to jump off the building as a movie stuntman, then no, fear of death would not be a good reason not to jump off the building the building. Similarly so in other contexts. For example: given how relatively safe commercial plane flights are, fear of death is not a good reason to not want to take a plane flight to visit one's mother. So basically, you're doing what ShrimpMaster did, when you conflate fear with evidence. I noted this before:

"At best, what you showed was that evidence was a rational basis for belief, as in the driving in the rain example above. In that driving case, one's evidence about the road being slick and one's knowledge of how slick roads make accidents more likely, was what rationally justified one's belief that one could get in an accident. That's not the same as an appeal to fear; it's an appeal to evidence. You seem to think otherwise, since you've confused evidence with fear. The two are not the same. For example, someone can be afraid of ghosts, while thinking that there's no evidence for ghosts existing. Fears of ghosts is not a good reason for believing there are ghosts; evidence of ghosts is a good reason for believing there are ghosts."

Second, you're conflating belief with action; avoiding jumping off a building is an action, not a belief. And that's important for a reasons I've noted before:

"Avoiding driving hard in rain is not a belief; it's an action. So that's not particularly relevant to the OP since being a Christian requires having a certain set of beliefs, not just actions (beliefs such as the Christian God exists, and Jesus is the way to salvation for the Christian God)."

Now you might respond by claiming that:

the action (avoiding jumping off a building) is justified by the belief (that jumping is likely to lead to one's death), so your distinction between "belief" and "action" is moot here

But that won't help you since, as I showed in my first point, the belief (that jumping is likely to lead to one's death) is justified by evidence, not fear. So it still would not be the case that fear was the justification.

I'm particularly interested in what Jichard has to say on this.

And I'm still waiting for you to actually answer the OP's question: Is fear of death a good reason to be Christian?

This:

The very best reason to become a Christian is because it is true.

does not answer the OP's question. It dodges the question.

[Jichard]

That is easy. Worshipers of Satan.

You realize that the vast majority of Satanists are either occultists or atheistic egoists, right? It is not the case that they believe that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc. Even those Satanists who do believe in a real Christian God, also usually believe in a deity called Satan, who is as powerful or more powerful than God, and who will protect them from punishment.

I think you could do a quick google search and figure that out.

Did you do this google search yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

Try this thought experiment: it is possible for a person to believe God exists, Jesus is the divine Son of God, and they will face divine punishment, and openly rebel against God. Just because a person believes those things does not make them a Christian.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's likely nor that there are large numbers of people who hold such a few. Even if those people existed, they are far outnumbered by the number of Christians. Hence you having difficulty naming such people (Satanists don't count, as I explained above.

"Furthermore, if a human already believes that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., then they're almost certainly already a Christian. So fear of death would not provide them with some reason to become a Christian, since they already are a Christian."

This is further demonstrated in the book of James

Demons are not humans, nor do they exist. Making claims about demons, at best, establishes a possibility, as opposed to showing something that many humans would likely adopt.