Is fear a good reason to become Christian

[whag]

There have been times, particularly when I was younger, when I didn't even know if I believed in Hell, or maybe thought it was "trumped up" to make people more afraid. That never really did anything for me. I came to Jesus for the love - His love for me, and the love of the brothers for each other. Even if Hell didn't exist, I'd still be a Christian.

Presumably, you've grown to accommodate it into your theology. What do you believe about it now?

[Cow Poke]

Presumably, you've grown to accommodate it into your theology. What do you believe about it now?

I don't worry about Hell at all - I'm not going there. And I'm focused on showing the Truth to the lost, so they can go to Heaven. I know it may sound simplistic, but I would rather love people to Heaven than scare them out of Hell. I'm responsible for "telling the Good News", and that's (at the heart) Christ crucified, buried and risen again.

[whag]

I don't worry about Hell at all - I'm not going there. And I'm focused on showing the Truth to the lost, so they can go to Heaven. I know it may sound simplistic, but I would rather love people to Heaven than scare them out of Hell. I'm responsible for "telling the Good News", and that's (at the heart) Christ crucified, buried and risen again.

No, I mean what do you think the purpose is? You're expressing a much more sensible methodology for spreading the good news. The good news isn't that you're saved from eternal fire, and yet that's the message strongly embedded in the gospel. Aquinas, Tertullian, and Johnathon Edwards thought hell a good a motivator even though it never affects a dignified conversion.

[Cow Poke]

No, I mean what do you think the purpose is?

The purpose of?

You're expressing a much more sensible methodology for spreading the good news. The good news isn't that you're saved from eternal fire, and yet that's the message strongly embedded in the gospel. Aquinas, Tertullian, and Johnathon Edwards thought hell a good a motivator even though it never affects a dignified conversion.

I'm just doing what I believe God has called me to do, and it seems it actually works.

[Leonhard]

That isn't what fear of death is.

Not the same as fear of death.

Not the same as fear of death.

You do know this is a forum with threads... you don't have to break my post into bytes and respond to them individually as if its a conversation. Its not really. I write a post, you read it, disagree and reply. Pointing out that I've made a mistake throughout the post is kind of redundant. Your opening post was fairly broad, and I thought it was interesting to point out that fear of God would be an excellent reason to convert, even if love of God is an even better reason.

For example, one can fear death without believing one has an immortal soul.

I can agree with that.

That's a fallacious appeal to consequences; fear does not provide one with a reason to think Christianity is true,

You're burning a strawman, I presumed a person who believed in God already, and whether fear of his death (and what would then happen to him) was a good motivating factor in becoming a Christian. The answer is yes.

If a person didn't believe God existed, but simple feared that he did, and tried to convert out of that fear, then its a different story. That's somewhat different from someone who through reflection, prayer, etc... have grounds for believing in God, and because of that belief experiences a fear of the consequences of his life, and desires to convert because of that fear. The former wouldn't suffice for a conversion. A person has to actually believe that God exists, and in all that the Catholic Church believes, teaches and preaches, its not sufficient to merely fear that these things might be true.

That would make the conversion irrational.

Whether a secular fear of death is a good reason to examine the case for God, I'd say its a good a motivating factor as any, but if all you have is mere fear of the possibility of God's existence, then no, you don't have the Christian faith.

[Jichard]

You do know this is a forum with threads... you don't have to break my post into bytes and respond to them individually as if its a conversation. Its not really. I write a post, you read it, disagree and reply. Pointing out that I've made a mistake throughout the post is kind of redundant. Your opening post was fairly broad, and I thought it was interesting to point out that fear of God would be an excellent reason to convert, even if love of God is an even better reason.

First, I reply to posts in sections, to make it clear which specific post section my response refers to.

Second, your point about fear of God wasn't really relevant to my question, and since that question was the topic of the thread, I wanted to make that clear.

You're burning a strawman, I presumed a person who believed in God already, and whether fear of his death (and what would then happen to him) was a good motivating factor in becoming a Christian. The answer is yes

If a person didn't believe God existed, but simple feared that he did, and tried to convert out of that fear, then its a different story. That's somewhat different from someone who through reflection, prayer, etc... have grounds for believing in God, and because of that belief experiences a fear of the consequences of his life, and desires to convert because of that fear. The former wouldn't suffice for a conversion. A person has to actually believe that God exists, and in all that the Catholic Church believes, teaches and preaches, its not sufficient to merely fear that these things might be true.

If a person believed in God, but did not yet believe specifically in the the Christian God, then fear of death would not be a good reason to become a Christian, for the reasons I noted in my previous post. Basically: it's a fallacious appeal to fear and appeal to consequences, since what one fears has no bearing on what's true, false, justified, etc.

Now if a person already believed in the Christian God, then they would not fear of death as a motivating factor to be Christian. They're already Christian. If fear of death was the main motivating factor that kept them believing that God exists, then they have the same proble with appeal to fear and appeal to consequences.

[ShrimpMaster]

First, a fear of divine punishment is not the same as a fear of death. And since my question was about fear of death, you haven't really answered the question.

JICHARD you are confused and unfortunately most of the responses are also because the OP is confused also. An appeal to fear would be a logically fallacious form of argument, but as far as a rational basis for beliefs- fear is sufficient. Think about it. I don't drive in hard rain because I have a higher likelihood of getting in an accident- this is a rational basis for my belief that I could get in an accident. I don't fly a kite in a lightning storm because I could get struck by lightning. I don't stab myself in the heart because I would die. All rational appeals to fear/consequences and are a basis for rational beliefs... As far as showing Christianity to be true on the basis of fear I don't think anyone would consider that valid. Thanks

[Jichard]

JICHARD you are confused and unfortunately most of the responses are also because the OP is confused also.

Not confused at all.

An appeal to fear would be a logically fallacious form of argument, but as far as a rational basis for beliefs- fear is sufficient.

No, fear of death is not a rational basis for being a Christian, for the reasons already discussed.

Think about it. I don't drive in hard rain because I have a higher likelihood of getting in an accident- this is a rational basis for my belief that I could get in an accident.

Avoiding driving hard in rain is not a belief; it's an action. So that's not particularly relevant to the OP since being a Christian requires having a certain set of beliefs, not just actions (beliefs such as the Christian God exists, and Jesus is the way to salvation for the Christian God).

And your belief that "I could get in an accident" is not based on fear; it's based on the fact that rain makes the road more slick and a more slick road leads to more accidents. So there's no appeal to fear there; there's an appeal to evidence.

I don't fly a kite in a lightning storm because I could get struck by lightning.

Again, avoiding flying a kite in a lightning storm is not a belief, but instead an action.

I don't stab myself in the heart because I would die.

Belief, not an action.

All rational appeals to fear/consequences and are a basis for rational beliefs...

You haven't show that at all. At best, what you showed was that evidence was a rational basis for belief, as in the driving in the rain example above. In that driving case, one's evidence about the road being slick and one's knowledge of how slick roads make accidents more likely, was what rationally justified one's belief that one could get in an accident. That's not the same as an appeal to fear; it's an appeal to evidence. You seem to think otherwise, since you've confused evidence with fear. The two are not the same. For example, someone can be afraid of ghosts, while thinking that there's no evidence for ghosts existing. Fears of ghosts is not a good reason for believing there are ghosts; evidence of ghosts is a good reason for believing there are ghosts.

As far as showing Christianity to be true on the basis of fear I don't think anyone would consider that valid. Thanks

What I actually asked in the OP was this:

Is fear of death a good reason to be Christian?

Of course, a requirement of being a Christian is believing that Christianity is true, amonst believing a number of other things. So if an appeal to fear is not a good reason to have those beliefs, then it's not a good reason to be Christian.

[robrecht]

I also read your original post and quotation about being a Christian to be about not only believing tenets of Christianity but also acting in accord with Christian morals. Hence my response that related to choosing love over fear.

[ShrimpMaster]

Hi JRichard, I typed the previous response from my phone, so please disregard the awkward grammar.

I think we have come to agreement that arguing for the truth of Christianity on the basis of fear would be logically fallacious. As far as I know, nobody argues as such, so I don't see that as a big deal.

Now, what we are arguing over is; what is a rational basis for the acceptance of Christianity? Realize that the way you have phrased a lot of this conversation has been misleading. For instance, the question you keep posing is "is fear a good reason to become a Christian?". In most cases a person cites that it is and you end up responding that it doesn't prove the truth of Christianity, but this is not the question. It isn't like you ask someone why they believe Christianity is true and their response is "it is true because if I don't accept it I will go to hell" or something rather. That would be idiotic.

We are not arguing over the truth of Christianity - just a person's rational basis for the acceptance of Christian belief. For example, a person can come to an intellectual acceptance of Christianity and still not be a Christian. Your question is; would fear be a good reason to move this person to accept Jesus as their Savior?

JRichard, let's make no mistake. You have spent enough time on these forums to know the arguments for God's existence and clearly you are versed in some form of Christian theology. Let me appeal to your selfish side. It is in your own self-interest to become a Christian, because the consequence for the rejection of the grace of Jesus will be severe.

Now, let's say you are moved to accept Jesus as your savior. Did I just prove the truth of Christianity to you? No, the only thing that happened is that you were moved to accept the truth of Christianity on the basis of fear.

Would this be reasonable for you to do? Certainly, without a doubt. Fear is a rational basis for to accept a belief. Here are some examples to back it up.

I don't stab myself in the throat when I have heartburn because I fear death
I don't steal because I fear punishment from the court
I accept Jesus as my Savior because I fear the divine punishment for sin

Realize that appealing to these examples as actions instead of beliefs do nothing. An action and a belief are not mutually exclusive. To say they are actions instead of beliefs is worthless.

Now, is the fear of death specifically a good reason to become a Christian? I don't think so. Christianity never says you won't die if you accept Jesus as your savior. I guess you would have to tell me what people are saying to make you think the fear of death would be a basis for belief in Christianity.

[ShrimpMaster]

You haven't show that at all. At best, what you showed was that evidence was a rational basis for belief, as in the driving in the rain example above. In that driving case, one's evidence about the road being slick and one's knowledge of how slick roads make accidents more likely, was what rationally justified one's belief that one could get in an accident.

Right, and when you ask: is fear of death a good reason to become a Christian? It would also include certain beliefs accepted prior to becoming a Christian (i.e. God exists, God will punish sin, I will face divine judgment for my moral failure, etc...)

[37818]

<snip> . . .
Now, is the fear of death specifically a good reason to become a Christian? I don't think so. Christianity never says you won't die if you accept Jesus as your savior. I guess you would have to tell me what people are saying to make you think the fear of death would be a basis for belief in Christianity.

". . . And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; . . ." -- Jude :23.

[ShrimpMaster]

". . . And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; . . ." -- Jude :23.

Right, that would be the fear of divine punishment. Not the fear of earthly death.

[Jichard]

Right, and when you ask: is fear of death a good reason to become a Christian? It would also include certain beliefs accepted prior to becoming a Christian (i.e. God exists, God will punish sin, I will face divine judgment for my moral failure, etc...)

Fear of death does not entail any of the beliefs you mentioned. I've discussed that elsewhere on this thread:

"That isn't what fear of death is. For example, one can fear death without believing one has an immortal soul. Furthermore, one can fear death without believing that God exists, let alone respecting God. After all, people were fearing death long before Christianity and Judaism were even around. There are (arguably) even some non-human animals who fear death, yet it'd be ridiculous to claim that that means they have some sort of respect for God and concern for the consequences for their immortal soul."

Furthermore, if a human already believes that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., then they're almost certainly already a Christian. So fear of death would not provide them with some reason to become a Christian, since they already are a Christian.

[Jichard]

Hi JRichard, I typed the previous response from my phone, so please disregard the awkward grammar.

I think we have come to agreement that arguing for the truth of Christianity on the basis of fear would be logically fallacious. As far as I know, nobody argues as such, so I don't see that as a big deal.

Now, what we are arguing over is; what is a rational basis for the acceptance of Christianity? Realize that the way you have phrased a lot of this conversation has been misleading. For instance, the question you keep posing is "is fear a good reason to become a Christian?".

In the OP, I phrase the question as:

Is fear of death a good reason to be Christian?

There's a reason I put the "of death" part in the question; it's because Darth Executor included it in Darth's statement I quoted from the OP.

In most cases a person cites that it is and you end up responding that it doesn't prove the truth of Christianity, but this is not the question. It isn't like you ask someone why they believe Christianity is true and their response is "it is true because if I don't accept it I will go to hell" or something rather. That would be idiotic.

Being a Christian entails believing that Christianity is true. So in order for fear of death to be a good reason to be a Christian, fear of death would need to give one reason for thinking that Christianity is true.

We are not arguing over the truth of Christianity - just a person's rational basis for the acceptance of Christian belief.

We're arguing over reasons for being Christian, and since being Christian entails accepting that Christianity is true, we're arguing over reasons for accepting that Christianity is true.

For example, a person can come to an intellectual acceptance of Christianity and still not be a Christian. Your question is; would fear be a good reason to move this person to accept Jesus as their Savior?

Intellectual acceptance of Christianity is a pre-requisite for being Christian, and it's also a pre-requisite for accepting Jesus as one's savior. For example, one cannot accept Jesus as one's savior (on traditional, mainstream Christianity), if one does not have the intellectual belief that Jesus is God.

JRichard, let's make no mistake. You have spent enough time on these forums to know the arguments for God's existence and clearly you are versed in some form of Christian theology. Let me appeal to your selfish side. It is in your own self-interest to become a Christian, because the consequence for the rejection of the grace of Jesus will be severe.

It's not in my self-interest to become Christian, anymore than it's in my self-interest to become Muslim. You seem to think otherwise since you seem to think that great harm would come to me Christianity were true and I was not Christian (or that great benefit would come to me if Christianity were true and I accepted Christianity). But that doesn't help your argument, since when one is reasoning about self-interest, one does not just look at the magnitude of harm that comes with a given option. One also includes an estimate of the probability of said harm. If that probability is very low, than there's no reason to take the harm seriously. For example, enormous harm would come to me if I went outside today and a small meteor smashed through my stomach. But the probability of that happening is so low that it's not worth taking seriously, and so that meteor possibility alone is not enough to say that it's against my self-interest to go outside. Similarly, I think the probability of Christianity is so low that it's not against my self-interest not to be Christian. Same for Islam and Judaism.

Now, let's say you are moved to accept Jesus as your savior. Did I just prove the truth of Christianity to you? No, the only thing that happened is that you were moved to accept the truth of Christianity on the basis of fear.

Would this be reasonable for you to do? Certainly, without a doubt.

I think you're again running together fear with evidence. If what you meant above was that you gave me evidence that rejection of the grace of Jesus would lead to punishment in the afterlife, then sure, it would be rational for me to accept the truth of Christianity based on that. Evidence can be a rational basis for belief, and you would have just given me evidence of an afterlife where the grace of Jesus played a role in what goes on in that afterlife. However, appealing to evidence is not the same thing as appealing to fear. So if what you instead meant above was that you appealed to my fear that rejection of the grace of Jesus would lead to punishment in the afterlife, then no, it would not be rational for me to accept the truth of Christianity based on that. It would be like my believing that ghosts exist simply because I fear ghosts. That makes no sense, since fearing that X is not a good reason for believing that X.

Fear is a rational basis for to accept a belief. Here are some examples to back it up.

I don't stab myself in the throat when I have heartburn because I fear death
I don't steal because I fear punishment from the court
I accept Jesus as my Savior because I fear the divine punishment for sin

I addressed those examples already: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...428#post241428

As I discussed there, you're making at least two mistakes in your discussion of those examples: you're conflating actions with beliefs, and you're conflating fear with evidence. Your examples don't show that fear is a rational basis for accepting a belief. Instead, they show that evidence is a rational basis for accepting a belief, and that one's beliefs can influence one's actions.

Realize that appealing to these examples as actions instead of beliefs do nothing. An action and a belief are not mutually exclusive. To say they are actions instead of beliefs is worthless.

It's not worthless at all, and I explained why:

"Avoiding driving hard in rain is not a belief; it's an action. So that's not particularly relevant to the OP since being a Christian requires having a certain set of beliefs, not just actions (beliefs such as the Christian God exists, and Jesus is the way to salvation for the Christian God)."

You haven't addressed that explanation.

[Quote[Now, is the fear of death specifically a good reason to become a Christian? I don't think so. Christianity never says you won't die if you accept Jesus as your savior. I guess you would have to tell me what people are saying to make you think the fear of death would be a basis for belief in Christianity.[/QUOTE]

I quoted the words in the OP. Here they are again:

Fear of death is an excellent reason to be a Christian.