Morality Without Justice

[seer]

No, I have a correct view of justice, you just don't have it in your system. Your view of morality makes a mockery of justice. That is why you want to dismiss the very idea of justice. And there is why morality in a godless universe is ultimately irrational.

[seer]

It is implicit in the argument in your OP.

"(2) Morality behavior is only rational if justice will be done."

If you are now saying moral behaviour is rational for other reasons, then your argument falls apart and my work here is done.

So please clarify: Are you saying the only reason to do right was to avoid punishment?

Again, that is not what you implied in the OP. Please make up your mind!

No, you again missed the point. I'm not speaking of personal motivations. People can choose to do good or evil for any number of reasons. I'm looking at the big picture. And in a godless universe justice is often non-existent, if not totally non-existence. Which makes a mockery of both justice and morality.

Why behave morally if you will get punished anyway? Christianity is not about justice, it is about a petty, egotistical God getting his own back on anyone who dares to not worship him. You might be able to convince yourself that that is justice, but to non-Christians it is tyranny.

Do you advocate a similar "justice" for human courts? Everyone is guilty, the only question is how severe the punishment?

Let us think about your foreign country analogy again. In this country there are any number of odd laws, such as not eating ice cream or wearing garments of certain colours, but hey are old, and no one is too sure if they apply any more. Of course, there are laws about murder and theft, but they are just as old, and people assume they still apply.

In this country, when you get to forty, you go before the king, who judges you. There is no other court in the land, no other system of punishment; everyone is judged at forty, no one is judged before that. Those who are good, they get a retirement in luxury, but those who are bad are tortured for the rest of their lives.

Of course, the twist is that everyone is judged as bad. All the king has to do is decide just how bad you have been, and so how much torture you deserve.

A good moral system, would you say? Hmm, perhaps we should add that the king's flunkies get to go to the luxury returement, even though they are judged as bad, as long as they grovel to him. No matter what they have been up to. Is that better now?

Now the real question is: Do you think the citizens of such a country will tend to be more law abiding than in our country or less?

God's so-called justice is about his ego, and not about right and wrong. This is fundamental to the reward/punishment system.

Nice rant emotional rant Pixie, obviously sin has twisted your moral sense. No matter, in the end justice will be done.

[The Pixie]

No, you again missed the point. I'm not speaking of personal motivations. People can choose to do good or evil for any number of reasons. I'm looking at the big picture. And in a godless universe justice is often non-existent, if not totally non-existence. Which makes a mockery of both justice and morality.

Okay, you are right, I have missed your point if you are not talking about personal motivation. In fact, I have to admit to not having a clue what you meant by:

(2) Morality behavior is only rational if justice will be done.

... if you do not mean the personal motivation to behave morally.

Do you have any idea?

It seems to me then that your argument comes down to wishful thinking.

If there is no justice from God, then there can be no ultimate morality or justice
I really want there to be an ultimate morality and justice
Therefore god must exist

I am paraphrasing of course.

Nice rant emotional rant Pixie, obviously sin has twisted your moral sense. No matter, in the end justice will be done.

Obviously, if I am expecting justice based on whether you have done good or bad. How twisted is that?

[seer]

Okay, you are right, I have missed your point if you are not talking about personal motivation. In fact, I have to admit to not having a clue what you meant by:

(2) Morality behavior is only rational if justice will be done.

... if you do not mean the personal motivation to behave morally.

Do you have any idea?

Yes and I already explained. Men may have all kinds of subjective reasons for acting morally or immorally. Though it can be individual, it is more about worldviews. With God, we live in a just and moral universe, without God we don't. It is that simple.

It seems to me then that your argument comes down to wishful thinking.

If there is no justice from God, then there can be no ultimate morality or justice
I really want there to be an ultimate morality and justice
Therefore god must exist

I am paraphrasing of course.

And the end is that you live in an amoral, unjust universe, which makes a mockery of both justice and morality, I do not.

Obviously, if I am expecting justice based on whether you have done good or bad. How twisted is that?

And I already told you that you are judged on works, through degrees of rewards or punishments. That is justice.

[Psychic Missile]

So moral behavior is not rational in your world. Thanks for making my point.

That's not what I said. Moral behavior is not for certain rational, so the first line makes a huge assumption that should be argued for.

And there are times when a Stalin and Mao win. Again, no justice.

Do Stalin and Mao win often enough that similar behavior is too risky to be rational?

That makes no sense. A Mao dies old and happy in bed. Where are his consequences? And how did these moral consequences get programmed into the universe? Rock and dust don't care about moral issues.

Belief in karma includes either an afterlife, reincarnation, or both. These consequences are programmed into the universe in the same way physics and chemistry are.

No you said:We can only verify true things to others through science.

Is that a true statement? And can you verify that to me through science? If you can't then you believe true things that can not be verified by science - which makes your claim false.

The hypothesis "science can verify true things to others" has been shown to be true through its success. There are no alternatives or evidence for alternatives, and there's no reason to believe in things for which there is no evidence, therefore my statement.

[Tassman]

No, I have a correct view of justice, you just don't have it in your system. Your view of morality makes a mockery of justice.

That is why you want to dismiss the very idea of justice. And there is why morality in a godless universe is ultimately irrational.

Nice rant emotional rant Pixie, obviously sin has twisted your moral sense. No matter, in the end justice will be done.

Really! Prove it.

[seer]

How is any system so void of justice be rational? Or in the end - moral?

[seer]

Belief in karma includes either an afterlife, reincarnation, or both. These consequences are programmed into the universe in the same way physics and chemistry are.

Yes I know this but it never made sense to me. Rock and dust (i.e. the universe) doesn't care that I murder my fellow man. Never mind make me pay for that wrong in a future life. So what programmed these moral consequences into the universe? Matter and energy certainly did not.

The hypothesis "science can verify true things to others" has been shown to be true through its success. There are no alternatives or evidence for alternatives, and there's no reason to believe in things for which there is no evidence, therefore my statement.

Yet your hypothesis "science can verify true things to others" can not be proven scientifically. Yet you believe that it is true. So obviously you believe that there are true things that can be known apart from scientific confirmation.

That's not what I said. Moral behavior is not for certain rational, so the first line makes a huge assumption that should be argued for.

I said: Then it is not rational (moral behavior).

You said: Agreed, which would make the first line incorrect.



So you already agreed that morality in your world is not rational.

[Psychic Missile]

Yes I know this but it never made sense to me. Rock and dust (i.e. the universe) doesn't care that I murder my fellow man. Never mind make me pay for that wrong in a future life. So what programmed these moral consequences into the universe? Matter and energy certainly did not.

I think you're just having trouble imagining a naturalistic universe. Rock and dust don't care about gravity or aerodynamics, but they still follow these physical rules. Likewise, the universe doesn't care about right or wrong, but it still supposedly follows the rules of karma.

Yet your hypothesis "science can verify true things to others" can not be proven scientifically. Yet you believe that it is true. So obviously you believe that there are true things that can be known apart from scientific confirmation.

Our entire body of scientific knowledge is based on experiments that also tested that hypothesis and the objective nature of that body provide that data that prove it.

I said: Then it is not rational (moral behavior).

You said: Agreed, which would make the first line incorrect.


So you already agreed that morality in your world is not rational.

I was referring to the hypothetical.

I said "Moral behavior could be entirely attributable to instinct."

You said "Then it is not rational."

I was agreeing that if moral behavior could be entirely attributable to instinct, then it would not be rational.

[seer]

I think you're just having trouble imagining a naturalistic universe. Rock and dust don't care about gravity or aerodynamics, but they still follow these physical rules. Likewise, the universe doesn't care about right or wrong, but it still supposedly follows the rules of karma.

Yes, but why/how? Gravity is a physical force, what you are speaking of is a moral force. We know that matter and energy follow certain physical laws but why would the universe follow moral law? As far as I know moral ideals or considerations only exist in minds, not in rocks and gas.

Our entire body of scientific knowledge is based on experiments that also tested that hypothesis and the objective nature of that body provide that data that prove it.

You are completely missing the point. You made the claim: "science can verify true things to others." But that claim can not be verified by science. Yet you believe it is true. So not all truths are discovered by science. Your claim certainly is not scientific.

I was referring to the hypothetical.

I said "Moral behavior could be entirely attributable to instinct."

You said "Then it is not rational."

I was agreeing that if moral behavior could be entirely attributable to instinct, then it would not be rational.

OK - good.

[JimL]

The argument goes like this:




In a godless universe, many, if not most, crimes go unpunished. A greedy Hedge fund manager and a Mother Teresa have the same fate - death and dust, so why be a Mother Teresa? No non-theistic moral system can offer universal justice, even potentially, therefore no non-theistic system can be rational.

Thats a poor argument seer. Moral behavior is rational, but it is rational even if justice is not always done. I already answered why this is so in another thread, but you abruptly failed to respond to it. If your hypothesised paradise could exist, then it must be obvious even to you that a moral system which that paradise is based upon could exist as well. People would have to adhere to that moral system, but it wouldn't matter whether they did so freely or by command, so long as they did so it would work just the same. Therefore whether theistic or non-theistic, whether in obedience or followed freely, such a moral system would be both objective, and rational.

[Tassman]

How is any system so void of justice be rational? Or in the end - moral?

[seer]

Thats a poor argument seer. Moral behavior is rational, but it is rational even if justice is not always done. I already answered why this is so in another thread, but you abruptly failed to respond to it. If your hypothesised paradise could exist, then it must be obvious even to you that a moral system which that paradise is based upon could exist as well. People would have to adhere to that moral system, but it wouldn't matter whether they did so freely or by command, so long as they did so it would work just the same. Therefore whether theistic or non-theistic, whether in obedience or followed freely, such a moral system would be both objective, and rational.

Nonsense Jim, if there is no ultimate justice then morality is not rational. How could it be? There is no way that any moral system where a large part of evil doers get away scot- free could be considered rational. You can assert that it is, but on what basis does that make sense? When you have a universe where a Mother Teresa and a Mao have the exact same end you live in a morally bankrupt cosmos.

[seer]

Tass is that all there is to ethics then it certainly is irrational. Not only is justice not always done, it is also non-rational since the forces of nature that caused us to act this way are non-rational. And there is no rational reason, or moral imperative, that we as species should survive in the first place - so behaviors that cause us to survive are as meaningless as we as a species are.

[JimL]

Nonsense Jim, if there is no ultimate justice then morality is not rational.

Unfounded assertion.

How could it be?

I just explained to you how that could be.

There is no way that any moral system where a large part of evil doers get away scot- free could be considered rational.

Who said anything about evil doers, or people within the system who don't adhere to the moral system?

You can assert that it is, but on what basis does that make sense? When you have a universe where a Mother Teresa and a Mao have the exact same end you live in a morally bankrupt cosmos.

Your argument is that objective morals cannot exist in an exclusively natural world. Justice is a whole other question. If there is a moral system best suited to a world in which people can live in peace and joy together, such as your after life paradise, then that moral system by definition is objective. Whether people adhere to those morals, or are punished for transgressing them, has nothing to do with whether the moral principles themselves are objective in the sense that following them leads to the general good of all involved. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe in the possibility of your after life moral paradise.