Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Dubious Plot and Cast
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by whag View PostDon't drag this out. It'll get boring fast if you take this approach.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostLike I said to Shuny, we need to separate Biblical claims from [wild] speculations.
It really feels like you're stalling in getting this discussion started. I gave you a very simple summary of what I find unbelievable, which is what you asked for. Now you're implying I'm a wild speculator. Unless you pick up the pace, I'm through here.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWho is nobody?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by whag View PostNot just one, but billions. If it were any less, they couldn't tempt and antagonize humanity sufficiently.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe guy who voluntarily pays way more taxes than he owes because he just loves the efficiency of our government.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2015, 11:10 AM.
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Originally posted by whag View PostYes, but let's not start there. Let's start with premise and characters. Thinking like yours accepts the premise that God created a being who knew God's power, got jealous, and led a mutiny. Very little is said about this but so much has been extrapolated from it. Cut to Jesus' time. The characters from that mutiny inhabit and antagonize random people. Satan later appears to tempt God, the person who made him, taunting him to save himself and offering him earthly kingdoms.
As with so many myths and religions, I don't believe this. I think moral and natural evil are better explained in other ways, not through the anthropomorphic story of Satan having a whack attack.
I think this cast of characters works fine if we understand the backstory. Here's a backstory that could work. God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) "the ruler of this world", "the prince of the power of the air", and "the god of this age". By Satan usurping mankind's dominion, direct divine communication between God and man was broken off. Since Satan acquired dominion over the earth legally, it required God to take it back legally (God being a God of order, and not of chaos must follow whatever guidelines he has previously laid out).
Jesus came in part to restore that dominion, and to intercede on our behalf. It's possible that Satan did not know the full identity of Jesus (assuming that he was the Messiah, and the Son of God, but not knowing that he was God the Son), but even if he did, he had something precious that he knew that the Messiah wanted back. He didn't understand, and could not foresee that the Christ would suffer the ultimate curse by being mocked, hung on a tree till death, and then buried. So he offered what he possessed, all of the dominion over the world, and the world system, and everything that went with that, if only the Messiah would bow to him (which, incidentally, is what he wanted when he was cast out from heaven if we accept that he is symbolically represented in Isaiah 14:12-14). That said, the Christian is not obliged to accept that anything Satan does is done rationally. Perhaps being cast out of the presence of the almighty made him nuts. He knows he is ultimately defeated, and while fruitless, he attempts to thwart God in any and every way that he possibly can until his final end.
Anyways, the above may not be satisfactory to you. May even ask more questions than it answers. But I for one believe it adds plausible background to dubious plots and cast.
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Originally posted by whag View PostMaybe you're right. Maybe a dozen would do the trick. Or maybe it's just hooey.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI have not met this nobody.
Can you introduce him or her to me.
As far as the reference in the previous post by Darth it did not have this meaning. It vaguely referred to everyone else on Tweb. Is this your view of everyone else on Tweb as 'nobody.'The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDon't know why I'm bothering, but...
[Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think this cast of characters works fine if we ounderstand the backstory. Here's a backstory that could work. God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) "the ruler of this world", "the prince of the power of the air", and "the god of this age". By Satan usurping mankind's dominion, direct divine communication between God and man was broken off. Since Satan acquired dominion over the earth legally, it required God to take it back legally (God being a God of order, and not of chaos must follow whatever guidelines he has previously laid out).
Jesus came in part to restore that dominion, and to intercede on our behalf. It's possible that Satan did not know the full identity of Jesus (assuming that he was the Messiah, and the Son of God, but not knowing that he was God the Son), but even if he did, he had something precious that he knew that the Messiah wanted back. He didn't understand, and could not foresee that the Christ would suffer the ultimate curse by being mocked, hung on a tree till death, and then buried. So he offered what he possessed, all of the dominion over the world, and the world system, and everything that went with that, if only the Messiah would bow to him (which, incidentally, is what he wanted when he was cast out from heaven if we accept that he is symbolically represented in Isaiah 14:12-14). That said, the Christian is not obliged to accept that anything Satan does is done rationally. Perhaps being cast out of the presence of the almighty made him nuts. He knows he is ultimately defeated, and while fruitless, he attempts to thwart God in any and every way that he possibly can until his final end.
Anyways, the above may not be satisfactory to you. May even ask more questions than it answers. But I for one believe it adds plausible background to dubious plots and cast.
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Originally posted by whag View PostBecause you want to defend the plausibility of it. Sometimes I feel like I know your motivation better than ypu do.
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