Christians Don't Sin

[Leonhard]

I love Scotland, lucky you weren't kidnapped and burned by the Presbyterians... I'm still rather amazed that you went into the Catholic Church. Seeing I came out of her.

In case you're wondering those big doors can be used for more than exiting.

[seer]

In case you're wondering those big doors can be used for more than exiting.

[whag]

"The righteous falls seven times and rises again." - Proverbs 24:16

We all sin so some extent with barely, Our Lord and Our Lady being the only two completely without sin, and even Our Lady needed to be saved by Christ.

Why do you believe Jesus' mother never sinned?

[37818]

"The righteous falls seven times and rises again." - Proverbs 24:16

We all sin so some extent with barely, Our Lord and Our Lady being the only two completely without sin, and even Our Lady needed to be saved by Christ.

The reason our Lord Jesus Christ was without sin is because He is also God (Mark 10:18). Since only God is sinless in regards to men(humans). His mother professed God to be her savior (Luke 1:47; Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20).

[Leonhard]

His mother professed God to be her savior (Luke 1:47; Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20).

Verily Mary the Mother of God was saved by her son.

[Leonhard]

Why do you believe Jesus' mother never sinned?

This has been a long discussion in the Catholic Church. The Church Fathers were quick to point out that Mary was the greatest believer in all of history, and the one to be given the most grace by whatever standard you care to choose. The perfection and purity, the glory of Christ implies that his throne would have to be very great as well.

So there was mostly consensus that Mary never sinned during her life. However the question remained whether she was born immaculately, as a new Eve, free of any stain of sin, even Eve's. And while there had been a consensus for this for most of the time, it was only recently it was made a dogma binding on all Catholics to believe.

I'm not going to turn this into a discussion on the glories of Mary, though I love talking about them.

[Sparko]

Really? Is someone forcing christians to sin. I guess just non christians go around sinning freely heh?

Our fallen nature. and by freely sinning I mean sinning and not caring. Or claiming that sin is good.

Wouldn't it be better if you tried to live a moral life because you believe it is the right way to live, rather than because God wants you to.

Sure JimL, then why don't you do that? You don't really need Christ to have eternal life. You can just lead a sinless life. Let me know how that works out for you.

Why not? Is it because when christians sin its different then when non-christians sin.

That doesn't even make sense.

Yet, as you admit, christians go on sinning just like everyone else.

At it's very basic, when you become a Christian you are doing more than just believing in Christ. You are choosing sides. You can try to live a perfect life on your own, or you can admit that no one can live a perfect life and we need help. Jesus came to help us. He lived a sinless life and died for everyone who chooses to follow him. As I said above, you are welcome to do it yourself and good luck with that.

And yet christians are no different in their imperfections than non-christians.

You got it. The difference is that we realize we are sinners and we want to live better lives and follow Christ. We choose God's side. You choose your own side because of your pride.

[JimL]

Our fallen nature. and by freely sinning I mean sinning and not caring. Or claiming that sin is good.

In other words its Adams fault that you sin? And whose fault was it that Adam sinned?

Sure JimL, then why don't you do that? You don't really need Christ to have eternal life. You can just lead a sinless life. Let me know how that works out for you.

First off no one lives what we would call a sinless life unless we have no personal sense at all of right and wrong, and if a reward is the only reason for your not sinning then that is hardly a thing to be honored by a God.

At it's very basic, when you become a Christian you are doing more than just believing in Christ. You are choosing sides.

No, not believing, is not choosing sides, its simply not believing. There are people who are every bit as good in their personal life as a practicing christians are who just don't happen to believe in being rewarded with eternal life for it.

You can try to live a perfect life on your own, or you can admit that no one can live a perfect life and we need help. Jesus came to help us.

We are imperfect beings Sparko, so it is already fact that we will not live perfect lives, and belief in Jesus obviously doesn't change that.

He lived a sinless life and died for everyone who chooses to follow him. As I said above, you are welcome to do it yourself and good luck with that.

Yes, Jesus was the sacrificial lamb who died in order that your continued sinning would be forgiven by him. That makes about as much sense as a screen door on a battleship!

You got it. The difference is that we realize we are sinners and we want to live better lives and follow Christ. We choose God's side. You choose your own side because of your pride

Everyone realizes that they are not perfect and they do not need to be a follower of christ in order to change their ways. You choose the side of pay back rather than doing what is right for its own sake. If there is a God whose actions do you think he would honor more, those seeking a reward, or those who act on principle.

[whag]

This has been a long discussion in the Catholic Church. The Church Fathers were quick to point out that Mary was the greatest believer in all of history, and the one to be given the most grace by whatever standard you care to choose. The perfection and purity, the glory of Christ implies that his throne would have to be very great as well.

So there was mostly consensus that Mary never sinned during her life. However the question remained whether she was born immaculately, as a new Eve, free of any stain of sin, even Eve's. And while there had been a consensus for this for most of the time, it was only recently it was made a dogma binding on all Catholics to believe.

I'm not going to turn this into a discussion on the glories of Mary, though I love talking about them.

That sounds like a huge extrapolation to me.

[37818]

Verily Mary the Mother of God was saved by her son.

Mary was the mother of our Lord, the man Jesus the Christ. God is not begotten and has no mother. [Respectfully we disagree here.]
We do agree in that Jesus' mother was saved by God whom her human son was also God in the flesh. Emmanuel (Matthew 1:23).

[JonathanL]

Mary was the mother of our Lord, the man Jesus the Christ. God is not begotten and has no mother.

So you think there are two persons then? Jesus, the man, who was born of Mary, and God the Son, Who wasn't?

[Sparko]

In other words its Adams fault that you sin? And whose fault was it that Adam sinned?

Adam chose to sin, but he didn't have to. This caused the fall, and all human nature was corrupted because of that choice. Jesus came to fix that.

First off no one lives what we would call a sinless life unless we have no personal sense at all of right and wrong,

That doesn't make any sense.

Jim, Sin is basically doing wrong, rebelling against God. If you choose not to even believe in God, then you don't believe in sin.

and if a reward is the only reason for your not sinning then that is hardly a thing to be honored by a God.

That's good, because that is not what Christianity is about. It is about realizing that you are a sinner and that you need forgiveness and that forgiveness comes from God.

No, not believing, is not choosing sides, its simply not believing. There are people who are every bit as good in their personal life as a practicing christians are who just don't happen to believe in being rewarded with eternal life for it.

By not choosing God, you have made your choice: yourself. It's the default. If you are running head long off a cliff and someone tries to stop you and tell you what you are doing, you can either choose to believe him and not run off the cliff, or continue to run off the cliff.

We are imperfect beings Sparko, so it is already fact that we will not live perfect lives, and belief in Jesus obviously doesn't change that.

Who said it does? Jesus was the only perfect sinless person. That is why we need him. So you can either choose to follow him, or do it on your own. As you say, nobody is perfect, so good luck with that choice.

Yes, Jesus was the sacrificial lamb who died in order that your continued sinning would be forgiven by him. That makes about as much sense as a screen door on a battleship!

Everyone realizes that they are not perfect and they do not need to be a follower of christ in order to change their ways. You choose the side of pay back rather than doing what is right for its own sake. If there is a God whose actions do you think he would honor more, those seeking a reward, or those who act on principle.

Except you don't, do you?

If you realize you are not perfect and that sin leads to death, then your principles should tell you to choose Jesus and obey him, instead of mocking him and his followers as you do.

[Leonhard]

Mary was the mother of our Lord, the man Jesus the Christ.

Agreed, Mary is the Mother of God, in as much as she carried Jesus Christ who is fully God and fully man within her womb.

God is not begotten

Agreed.

and has no mother.

This is where we disagree.

We do agree in that Jesus' mother was saved by God whom her human son was also God in the flesh. Emmanuel (Matthew 1:23).

Amen.

[Adrift]

Adam chose to sin, but he didn't have to. This caused the fall, and all human nature was corrupted because of that choice. Jesus came to fix that.


That doesn't make any sense.

Jim, Sin is basically doing wrong, rebelling against God. If you choose not to even believe in God, then you don't believe in sin.

That's good, because that is not what Christianity is about. It is about realizing that you are a sinner and that you need forgiveness and that forgiveness comes from God.





By not choosing God, you have made your choice: yourself. It's the default. If you are running head long off a cliff and someone tries to stop you and tell you what you are doing, you can either choose to believe him and not run off the cliff, or continue to run off the cliff.
Who said it does? Jesus was the only perfect sinless person. That is why we need him. So you can either choose to follow him, or do it on your own. As you say, nobody is perfect, so good luck with that choice.


I am sure it does sound foolish to you, who are perishing. Yet there is still hope for you.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.



Except you don't, do you?

If you realize you are not perfect and that sin leads to death, then your principles should tell you to choose Jesus and obey him, instead of mocking him and his followers as you do.

Its a bit underhanded this idea that's being implicitly snuck in that Christians only do good works for some reward at the end. As though we're dogs anticipating a treat for doing a good trick. And that non-theists are better than Christians for doing good works with no desire for reward...a sort of humble-brag to show how much better they are than Christians. I've seen other anti-theists push this argument before, and its so ridiculous. This idea might have some teeth if Christianity was a works based religion, but it isn't. Christians do good works because it naturally flows from our love for God and for people. The two commands that we willingly and delightfully base our lives on. That eternal life follows from making Jesus Lord is a win-win. There's absolutely no dilemma between desiring to do good for goodness' sake, and also recognizing that eternal life comes to those who follow Christ. The good news (literally) is that Christianity is an open club. Everyone is invited, as we once accepted the invitation.

[whag]

Its a bit underhanded this idea that's being implicitly snuck in that Christians only do good works for some reward at the end. As though we're dogs anticipating a treat for doing a good trick. And that non-theists are better than Christians for doing good works with no desire for reward...a sort of humble-brag to show how much better they are than Christians.

Yes, because this doesn't have any appearance of a humble brag at all.

I've seen other anti-theists push this argument before, and its so ridiculous. This idea might have some teeth if Christianity was a works based religion, but it isn't. Christians do good works because it naturally flows from our love for God and for people.

You're speaking way to generally. Some Christians manage to express their religion this way, while others we've observed clearly don't. The inverse truth is that some skeptics do express compassion and other forms of altruism MUCH better than some Christians. You know this.

The two commands that we willingly and delightfully base our lives on.

Some, not all.

That eternal life follows from making Jesus Lord is a win-win. There's absolutely no dilemma between desiring to do good for goodness' sake, and also recognizing that eternal life comes to those who follow Christ. The good news (literally) is that Christianity is an open club. Everyone is invited, as we once accepted the invitation.

For some Christians to whom good works don't naturally flow, and who express the gospel awkwardly because they aren't nuanced and sensitive (fundamentalists, for example), yes, there is perceptible conflict. Your anecdotal observations are just that.