A person who does not love God who he made lord, with all his heart, soul, and mind, and who does not love his neighbor as himself is not following Christ. If good works do not naturally follow from one's faith in Christ, then something is off in their faithfulness.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Christians Don't Sin
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostA person who does not love God who he made lord, with all his heart, soul, and mind, and who does not love his neighbor as himself is not following Christ. If good works do not naturally follow from one's faith in Christ, then something is off in their faithfulness.
Also, "good works" is relative. Pete Enns could be doing good works with great frequency, but you'd perceive those works differently seeing him as almost apostate.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAdam chose to sin, but he didn't have to. This caused the fall, and all human nature was corrupted because of that choice. Jesus came to fix that.
That doesn't make any sense.
Jim, Sin is basically doing wrong, rebelling against God. If you choose not to even believe in God, then you don't believe in sin.
That's good, because that is not what Christianity is about. It is about realizing that you are a sinner and that you need forgiveness and that forgiveness comes from God.
By not choosing God, you have made your choice: yourself. It's the default. If you are running head long off a cliff and someone tries to stop you and tell you what you are doing, you can either choose to believe him and not run off the cliff, or continue to run off the cliff.
Who said it does? Jesus was the only perfect sinless person. That is why we need him. So you can either choose to follow him, or do it on your own. As you say, nobody is perfect, so good luck with that choice.
I am sure it does sound foolish to you, who are perishing. Yet there is still hope for you.
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Except you don't, do you?
If you realize you are not perfect and that sin leads to death, then your principles should tell you to choose Jesus and obey him, instead of mocking him and his followers as you do.
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhat you just said is a perfect invitation to prematurely judge someone who, for whatever reason, isn't expressing good works with the same frequency that you expect her to. For all you know, she's shy and needs time to grow. That doesn't mean something's particularly off in her faith.
Also, "good works" is relative. Pete Enns could be doing good works with great frequency, but you'd perceive those works differently seeing him as almost apostate.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIts a bit underhanded this idea that's being implicitly snuck in that Christians only do good works for some reward at the end. As though we're dogs anticipating a treat for doing a good trick.
And that non-theists are better than Christians for doing good works with no desire for reward...a sort of humble-brag to show how much better they are than Christians.
I've seen other anti-theists push this argument before, and its so ridiculous. This idea might have some teeth if Christianity was a works based religion, but it isn't. Christians do good works because it naturally flows from our love for God and for people.
The two commands that we willingly and delightfully base our lives on. That eternal life follows from making Jesus Lord is a win-win. There's absolutely no dilemma between desiring to do good for goodness' sake, and also recognizing that eternal life comes to those who follow Christ. The good news (literally) is that Christianity is an open club. Everyone is invited, as we once accepted the invitation.Last edited by JimL; 04-05-2015, 08:55 PM.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostSo you think there are two persons then? Jesus, the man, who was born of Mary, and God the Son, Who wasn't?
One Person who has two natures. In begin born of His human mother Mary He became fully human in nature. His infinite divine nature precedes all created things (John 1:3). And in His divine nature being eternally fully God remains unchanged.Last edited by 37818; 04-05-2015, 10:15 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe Son of God was only and is only one Person eternally coequal as God with His Father. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are three Persons who are the one God.
One Person who has two natures. In begin born of His human mother Mary He became fully human in nature. His infinite divine nature precedes all created things (John 1:3). And in His divine nature being eternally fully God remains unchanged.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe Son of God was only and is only one Person eternally coequal as God with His Father. God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are three Persons who are the one God.
One Person who has two natures. In begin born of His human mother Mary He became fully human in nature. His infinite divine nature precedes all created things (John 1:3). And in His divine nature being eternally fully God remains unchanged.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIts not underhanded at all, just read Sparko's warning to me implying that being saved is what its all about. "Jesus came to save us" "Good luck to you with the choice of not believing in Jesus."There is still hope for you, but unless you believe in the message of the cross, i.e. in Jesus you will not be saved." Its all about being saved, and the bible makes that explicit over and over. Even the Biblical YHWH makes that explicit in his condemnation of A+E after their disobedience. No fruit from the tree of life for them!
Its not humble at all, it just happens to be true that it is nobler to do what is thought to be right because they believe it is right, than to do it in obeyance to an external command with a reward attached.
Naturally flows? And you do bad works, i.e. sin, because why? Because your evil works flow naturally from.......?
No one said there was a dilemma, what I implied is that it would be an awfully ridiculous and petty God that punished people that did what was right on principle, rather than in obedience to Jesus, just because they didn't believe the stories told about his existence. Everyone is invited to believe, but its ridiculous to think that disbelief is a sin. or that a God would punish good people for not believing ancient stories. I'll bet you don't believe in Allah, do you?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostDo you believe God the Son was incarnated in the womb of Mary? It seems to me that any person who wants to be orthodox must confirm this belief. And if you believe that the Person growing in Mary's womb was God, then it follows that Mary was the mother of God. If Mary was the mother of Jesus the man, but not the mother of God, then it follows logically that there must be two persons, because mothers are mothers to sons, not to natures.
He was God before the womb. What was growing was His human body, not his deity. He was one Person. He was the Son of God in His preexistence (Proverbs 30:4).Last edited by 37818; 04-06-2015, 07:58 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWere there only 2 persons in the one God when the son left them to visit earth?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by whag View PostYes, because this doesn't have any appearance of a humble brag at all.
You're speaking way to generally. Some Christians manage to express their religion this way, while others we've observed clearly don't. The inverse truth is that some skeptics do express compassion and other forms of altruism MUCH better than some Christians. You know this.
Some, not all.
For some Christians to whom good works don't naturally flow, and who express the gospel awkwardly because they aren't nuanced and sensitive (fundamentalists, for example), yes, there is perceptible conflict. Your anecdotal observations are just that.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat view is damnable.
He was God before the womb. What was growing was His human body, not his deity. He was one Person. He was the Son of God in His preexistence (Proverbs 30:4).
Clearly the view that God the Son was in the womb of Mary is not damnable, on the contrary, it's a view that you must hold to in order to be orthodox, because to deny it would mean that you split Christ into two different persons.
In short, the Person growing in Mary's womb was fully God at the moment of conception and from eternity past, He did not grow in divinity as you seem to erroneously think that I'm arguing. But it is still appropriate to say that Mary was the mother of God, because she was the mother of Christ, who as a Person was fully God.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, you choose to sin as well, but you don't have to, so how was Adam any different than you? So it would seem obvious that Adam was already in the so called fallen state, so from whom did he inherit it?
Thats your opinion. Obviously non Christians have a sense of right and wrong without attributing it to an objective source.
No, Christianity is about belief in God and the only reason you would need forgiveness from God is so that you get the promised reward. Why else would you need forgiveness?
Or you can choose not to believe him and be right because there is no cliff in sight.
You are on your own at any rate. Its already been established that you are a sinner, and continue to sin, whether or not you follow Jesus.
John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
Its not foolishness to those who are perishing, its just foolishness period. Such an assertion can be made in reverse "Disbelief in the message of the cross is foolishness to those who believe it." The assertion itself means nothing.
Except I don't what?
Well, I obviously don't believe that so your point is mute.
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JimL
I never said we do good works to be saved. I said we are saved because we believe in Christ and obey him. As Adrift said, we do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not in order to be saved. We do it out of love for God and our neighbors.
You seem to have a problem with wanting to be saved from damnation as if wanting to be saved is something greedy.
You sound like someone in the middle of the ocean who is drowning and resents the person next to him grabbing the life preserver tossed to him. You whine "The only reason you grabbed that life preserver was because you didn't want to drown. How selfish of you!" - and all the while there is a life preserver floating right next to you and you won't take it, claiming that you don't need it, because you can swim to shore yourself.
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