Glenn Miller on genocide

[Christianbookworm]

Actually atheists do not believe there is a god at all.

I know. Yet you keep criticizing God's actions as if He did exist.

[Abigail]

That only makes it moral if the people were brought back to life and there was no suffering. Thinking about the people slaughtered in the flood, do you think God is planning to bring them all back to life? Miller's articvle seems to be justifying why it was acceptable to kill them, which would seem to make them unlikely candidates for resurrection.

Firstly Christianity looks forward to the final resurrection and no suffering and my point was re any innocent children that might have died in the flood. God is able to restore their physical life to them.

And if a Muslim was building an ark in your neighbourhood and told you Allah was going to sent a flood, would you believe him?

Well if he told me that a flood was being sent because everyone was continually violent (and assuming it was), I would be able to look about me and agree that the place was very violent and that if judgement did come it would be due.

I have no idea what mental gymnastics you must do for this to make sense.

If someone aims a gun at another person and pulls the trigger, it is natural law that causes an explosion in the cartridge, that propels the bullet. The guy pulling the trigger is still a murderer.

Okay, children suffer because of their gambler parent. Children of abusive parents suffer because they get beat. It is all too common that an innocent part suffers when someone else sins. So what? You think that makes it right to allow children to suffer unnecessarily? Why?

Are you saying that God should have killed the parents earlier to limit the suffering of the children (because it must have been terrible growing up in such a violent place)? I guess He hoped the parents would change their ways and was giving them time to repent. Perhaps He decided to take any little ones to Himself for comfort.

[The Pixie]

I know. Yet you keep criticizing God's actions as if He did exist.

No, we point out the inconsistencies inherit in the Christian belief in God. Specifically in this thread:

God is all loving vs Biblical genocides

[The Pixie]

Firstly Christianity looks forward to the final resurrection and no suffering and my point was re any innocent children that might have died in the flood. God is able to restore their physical life to them.

So is it okay to kill innocent children in the Christian view? Sure, because God will bring them back, right?

We will have to agree to disagree on that one, I am afraid.

Well if he told me that a flood was being sent because everyone was continually violent (and assuming it was), I would be able to look about me and agree that the place was very violent and that if judgement did come it would be due.

If you can point to the bit in the Bible that says everyone was being continually violent, I will concede the point.

Are you saying that God should have killed the parents earlier to limit the suffering of the children (because it must have been terrible growing up in such a violent place)? I guess He hoped the parents would change their ways and was giving them time to repent. Perhaps He decided to take any little ones to Himself for comfort.

God should have taken action to stop this supposed culture of violence developing in the first place.

Do you have children? Do you let them run wild, then, when they are out-of-control adults, kill all but one? I think better parenting is to stop the behaviour from the start.

[Abigail]

If you can point to the bit in the Bible that says everyone was being continually violent, I will concede the point.

Gen 6:5,11-13

God should have taken action to stop this supposed culture of violence developing in the first place.

Do you have children? Do you let them run wild, then, when they are out-of-control adults, kill all but one? I think better parenting is to stop the behaviour from the start.

What should He have done? IIRC JP did a cartoon on this type of issue.

[Psychic Missile]

Assessing someone's methods usually requires being their peer, or higher than them in the specific field those methods are employed. And even if Einstein did explain how and why he did something there's no guarantee that the one he explains it to is intelligent/wise enough to give it a fair critique.

I doubt the people who peer-reviewed Einstein's papers were his intellectual peers. Sound reasoning and good evidence exist independent of their source.

But, assuming for a moment that God really exists (with all that it entails, such as omniscience, omnipotence and so on), and that His reasonings for the annihilations of the Canaanites (for example) would be one of the ones put forth by Christian apologists (or some combination thereof) would you then concede that God was justified in his actions/commands, or would you still insist that the God portrayed in the bible is some sort of heinous and capricious madman?

I would still insist. I don't think there is any reason for an all-powerful entity to directly cause or order any pain or suffering whatsoever.

[Psychic Missile]

The argument is that hell is also said to be a place of darkness, but something can't simultaneously consist of literal fire and literal darkness, since literal fire inherently generates light, so at least one, if not both of, those descriptions has to be figurative. Meanwhile, God is frequently analogized to water and light, so some exegetes reason that the fire and darkness imagery are deliberate antitheses to those God descriptions, thereby conveying the point that hell is the antithesis of God. Since ancient Jewish thought apparently cast God as the ultimate source of honor, hell would be the ultimate source of shame.

Or, on a more simplistic and literal-based level, a common human response to feeling shame is to cover one's face, and when doing this, one can see only darkness and feels warm and flushed--as if one is "burning up." That's probably how the Hebrews and Jews ultimately arrived at that imagery.

I find that argument very unconvincing.

[whag]

Uh, Miller already answered that:

Source: How could a God of Love order the massacre/annihilation of the Canaanites?

Innocent adults are given a 'way out' [This is very true here--in addition to the extensive warnings, plenty of time&space is given to allow migration before Israel arrived. We even have one example of a non-migration exception--Rahab--which suggests there might be others that were not recorded.]

© Copyright Original Source

http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html

Innocent adults are given a way out? Show me where it says that. And what of the innocent children?

I'm not sure how Rahab's family's sparing suggests there might be others that were not recorded.

[The Pixie]

Gen 6:5,11-13

Ah, right. Okay, I concede the point.

What should He have done? IIRC JP did a cartoon on this type of issue.

Really? You can think of no alternative but wipe out virtually all humanity?

How about God could give Seth a set of rules, like he did with Moses. Then he steps in to stop the culture of violence developing. Of course, you can argue that that restricts our free will, but so does not giving us wings and so does killing virtually everyone. Most parents are happy to restrict the free will of their children to ensure the safety of the children and to ensure he or she grows up understanding right and wrong.

Cartoons are always a convincing way to present an argument. Do please watch it and tell us all what the argument is.

[JonathanL]

I doubt the people who peer-reviewed Einstein's papers were his intellectual peers. Sound reasoning and good evidence exist independent of their source.

Sure.

I would still insist. I don't think there is any reason for an all-powerful entity to directly cause or order any pain or suffering whatsoever.

But that's what it all boils down to, isn't it? Your argument against God ordering the expulsion of the Canaanites and all the other things described in the Bible isn't based on anything rational, it's simply a reflexive reaction to something you find emotionally abhorrent.

[JonathanL]

Innocent adults are given a way out? Show me where it says that. And what of the innocent children?

It doesn't say it outright, so someone like you who has problems reading between the lines might have problems inferring it from the text.

I'm not sure how Rahab's family's sparing suggests there might be others that were not recorded.

Yeah, why doesn't that surprise me at all?

[Christianbookworm]

It doesn't say it outright, so someone like you who has problems reading between the lines might have problems inferring it from the text.



Yeah, why doesn't that surprise me at all?

There isn't any reasoning with fundy atheists. They fail at Biblical studies, understanding different cultures, history, literary genres, etc.

[Enjolras]

It doesn't say it outright, so someone like you who has problems reading between the lines might have problems inferring it from the text.

Yeah, why doesn't that surprise me at all?

That's an interesting tactic: when you can't offer evidence of your claim, you simply blame the other guy for being obtuse.

[whag]

It doesn't say it outright, so someone like you who has problems reading between the lines might have problems inferring it from the text.



Yeah, why doesn't that surprise me at all?

You read what you want to read between the lines. You infer what you need through eisegesis.

[Abigail]

Ah, right. Okay, I concede the point.

Really? You can think of no alternative but wipe out virtually all humanity?

How about God could give Seth a set of rules, like he did with Moses. Then he steps in to stop the culture of violence developing. Of course, you can argue that that restricts our free will, but so does not giving us wings and so does killing virtually everyone. Most parents are happy to restrict the free will of their children to ensure the safety of the children and to ensure he or she grows up understanding right and wrong.

Cartoons are always a convincing way to present an argument. Do please watch it and tell us all what the argument is.

But God gave Adam and Eve a rule. And then when they broke it, He did step in to limit the damage they could do. Can you imagine a senario where we could all be as violent and evil as we liked and we were immortal like God. There would be no rest for anyone who was a victim of such behaviour.