Miracles

[NormATive]

Pietermaritzburg, Natal, South Africa. And it wasn't a big faith healing rally. It was a normal old (Charismatic) prayer meeting. And it was not a fraudulent healing.

Thanks. No medical records, hunh? The South Africans are meticulous record keepers. It's a Dutch thing.

NORM

[NormATive]

The logical PoE is a dead issue. You apparently have a problem with the emotional PoE.

It's not me that has the problem. Your particular faith has the worst possible response to it.

Sorry about your Mum.

Thanks. She was a good woman taken from life way too early.

That's all that you got from my response to Enjolras' hypothetical? Really?

Yup.

NORM

[NormATive]

You don't need to "suspend the laws of physics and common sense" in order to believe in miracles, any more than you need to "suspend" the law of gravity if you want to pick up a stone from the ground.

The laws of gravity are still in full force, even though you are picking the stone up from the ground. You are not suspending the laws of gravity. Although, it provides an excellent analogy of exactly HOW ancient minds imagined there must be gods. Your ignorance of the laws of gravity caused you to imagine a supernatural event.

And what about miracles goes against common sense exactly? Or to go at it from another angle, why should we be concerned with it when common sense would, for example, have us discard any strange and counter-intuitive discovery each time we stumble upon one?

When you attend a funeral, do you fully expect the decedent to arise from the coffin? No? Why? What informs you that dead people normally remain dead? Intuition? Superstition?

NORM

[Raphael]

Thanks. No medical records, hunh? The South Africans are meticulous record keepers. It's a Dutch thing.

NORM

What is it with your guys reading comprehension? I didn't say there were no medical records. I said that the Doctor had long since died, so I don't know what happened to his records, and my parents didn't see fit to keep copies for themselves. So I have no access to any medical records.

As she was still being fostered by my parents at the time, I suppose the old Natal Archives Repository might have copies of them (if the Doc sent copies to them....he was a private doctor).

And although I just became a Kiwi late last year, I was South African so I know what the bloody Afrikaaners were like with their record keeping (you can have it in whatever language, it will always be in Afrikaans). And I also know that when my cousin got her ID book, it the photograph had someone of a different race and gender on it (really screwed things up as you need your ID book for just about everything).
And I also know someone else who when they got married, the records showed she was already married to a Nigerian (okay that was a fraud thing where the Nigerian was needing SA residency and slipped a couple of hundred rands in the direction of a corrupt official....still caused her no end of trouble to prove that she wasn't married to him)

[NormATive]

What is it with your guys reading comprehension? I didn't say there were no medical records. I said that the Doctor had long since died, so I don't know what happened to his records, and my parents didn't see fit to keep copies for themselves. So I have no access to any medical records.

My reading comprehension is fine. I know what you said. You said that you don't have medical records, therefore my comment; "no records, hunh?" I've been to South Africa, and EVERYONE keeps records out the wazoo.

As she was still being fostered by my parents at the time, I suppose the old Natal Archives Repository might have copies of them (if the Doc sent copies to them....he was a private doctor).

Thanks. I'll see what I can do. The Dutch Reformed folks would have a lot of interest in just such a story. From my experience in that country, they have a profound fascination with the supernatural. Pietermarizburg is a nice city. Visited the Durban-Natal Botanical Gardens years ago. Is that still there? Are you a descendant of the Voortrekkers?

What year did this event happen?

NORM

[KingsGambit]

Max's mention of the hospital worker's employment was not a good argument IMO, but it was just a throwaway line in a much longer post; he even admitted he was just speculating there. It was not at all the main part of his post. Norm, the fact that you just focused on that, ignored the rest of his post, and even admitted that's all you got from it is evidence you're not truly here to interact but rather just to try to plow through the weakest points you can.

[Tassman]

My imagination didn't conjure up the Christian God and His abilities to perform miracles.

Well it was conjured up by someone and you apparently believe it on the basis of no substantive evidence. In short, a leap of faith.

Did the stone float away by itself, or was it moved by a supernatural entity? If the latter I don't see how your assertion holds at all.

The point is that in picking up a stone the laws of gravity remain in place but if the stone floats away of its own accord then he laws of gravity have, for whatever reason (supernatural or otherwise), been suspended.

No, that's curiosity, that's not common sense. Common sense is what tells you to stay away from the unknown and keep inside during the night.

[Tassman]

If we're going to apply a broad general skepticism before looking at the evidence, we should (being consistent) apply that to the scientific enterprise as well, and thus reject or be very skeptical of most scientific claims.

Or you can have a double standard operating against evidence for things you'd rather not be true, if you like ...

How does that apply to someone who's heard the gospel for the first time, and been healed after the Christian then prays for them? (I personally know a number of people who this applies to....). Are they being irrational to think that the God they've just heard both is real and can heal them is the one who just has healed them?

What is the evidence, other than their say-so that a miracle occurred?

Interesting that literally millions of currently living people have either experienced or witnessed miracles - and yet according to some, apparently every single one of them is wrong because 'miracles don't happen'.

Why would God do anything 'on demand' to satisfy the whims of a skeptical person? There is already enough evidence available to support rational belief in God.

There is no credible evidence to support rational belief in God that I'm aware of. Please explain.

Yep.

belief in miracles and wonders that got the church going in the first place not that these beliefs were justified. Miracles were taken for granted in that credulous era; they were a dime-a-dozen.

[seer]

This is special pleading, there’s no double standard. By definition all scientific theories are falsifiable even though they are based upon tested empirical verification. By contrast religious claims of miracles are not - and yet you expect them to be treated the same as established science.

Yes but your faith Tass is acceptable:

For a start, how is the existence of the other universes to be tested? To be sure, all cosmologists accept that there are some regions of the universe that lie beyond the reach of our telescopes, but somewhere on the slippery slope between that and the idea that there are an infinite number of universes, credibility reaches a limit. As one slips down that slope, more and more must be accepted on faith, and less and less is open to scientific verification. Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator. The multiverse theory may be dressed up in scientific language, but in essence it requires the same leap of faith. Paul Davies, A Brief History of the Multiverse

[Enjolras]

[seer]

Seems legit.

Yes it is legit Enjolras since it ultimately is God prerogative when, where and why to answer prayer.

[firstfloor]

Yes it is legit Enjolras since it ultimately is God prerogative when, where and why to answer prayer.

Sure! God is the head teacher in the school of very hard knocks. Don’t expect any sympathy when you have to survive by eating your children.

[seer]

Sure! God is the head teacher in the school of very hard knocks. Don’t expect any sympathy when you have to survive by eating your children.

Well you can eat your children or choose to starve. Choices my friend, that is what it is all about.

[seer]

Teen who fell in icy pond makes 'miraculous' recovery

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/featu...-ice/22819829/

"He was dead for 45 minutes," says Dr. Sutterer.

What happened next defies explanation. Dr. Sutterer called John's mother into the room to give her the news.

"She started praying loudly," says Dr. Sutterer.

"I don't remember what all I said," recalls John's mother, Joyce Smith. "But I remember, 'Holy God, please send your Holy Spirit to save my son. I want my son, please save him.' And they hadn't been getting a pulse at that time, so all of a sudden I heard them saying, 'We got a pulse, we got a pulse.'"

"Within a matter of a minute or two, his heart started again," says Dr. Sutterer.

It's an experience that's shaken many of those in the emergency room that day. This veteran of responding to medical crisis wrote a letter about it as a way to cope.

"His heart was jump started by the Holy Spirit listening to the request of his praying mother," reads Dr. Sutterer, from the letter he wrote.

Dr. Jeremy Garrett who oversaw John's recovery even goes a step further. "It's a bonafide miracle."

[Adrift]

Here are a few things I have picked up from this discussion so far:

Miracles happen often.
Miracles are rare.

By definition, miracles happen rarely. They defy normal expectations. That's why they're often referred to as "wonders" in scripture. That said, the miraculous happens more often than those of us in the West think. And plenty of miraculous claims have been documented, so that there is less reason to doubt their veracity.

Miracles convince non believers.
Miracles are counter-productive in convincing non-believers.

I believe whag was the only one who suggested that miracles are counter-productive in convincing non-believers. He's an atheist who doesn't believe in miracles. I'd take what he says on the nature of miracles with a grain of salt.

One should pray, fully expecting miracles.
One should not ask God to do anything 'on demand' to satisfy the whims of a skeptical person.

Yes, this seems to be what Jesus teaches. Nothing contradictory here.

God heals through prayer in environments like China and India.
God will not or can not answer prayer when there is a lack of faith in the environment, like in the US.

Again, nothing contradictory here.

God loves the world and converts people through miracles.
When too many people believe and the culture is saturated with Christianity, he stops or greatly reduces the performance of miracles in that area for some reason.

Your second sentence was another one suggested by whag the atheist. Contrary to his opinion, I think many Christians would agree that US faithfulness is not particularly high, and it probably hasn't been for a very long time. While surveys may suggest that the US is predominantly Christian, its been my experience that most people know very very little about the Christian faith, and have very little expectation that the power of God can be manifested in their lives or the lives of others. Most people I know who would label themselves "Christian" do so moreso out of tradition or some form of patriotism. Their understanding of their faith is generally limited to belief that there is a God. That that God is named Jesus. And that if they do good stuff in the here and now, they'll go to some place in the clouds when they die to be with their dead friends and relatives. Most of the people I know who would label themselves Christian become very agitated when discussion moves into that area, and would rather talk about their favorite team, politician, or movie star than talk about faith. Even within the church, there are plenty of churches in the US that are spiritually dead, and that serve no more purpose than a sort of social clubs.

In prayer, you can ask for anything you want, including the moving of mountains.
You should not ask or expect miracles to be verifiable, such as closing down hospitals because all patients are healed.

One can pray for anything they desire, that doesn't mean that everything they desire will be given. One's desires must, at the very least, align with God's desire. James 4:2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

People pray for people in hospitals all of the time, and often that prayer is answered. Sometimes that prayer is answered in unexpected ways. Christians don't always know why some prayers seem to go unanswered, but a few suggestions have already been mentioned.

God’s power can be tested, such as in the case in Elijah vs. the prophets of Baal.
God can not be tested today because that would be inappropriate.

Seeing as how the prophets of Baal were killed in the encounter, it doesn't appear that the miracles that were accomplished were for their benefit. As a prophet of God, Elijah was doing God's bidding, not the other way around. It wasn't God's power being tested, if anything, it was the people of Israel who had turned to false idols that were being tested.

God proves himself to be the true God through answered prayer.
Satan can also answer prayer, which serves to confirm the deluded in their false beliefs.

This is sort of accurate from the Christian perspective. Satan appears to be limited in his ability, but signs and wonders can follow false prophets. That's why Christians are warned in 1 John 4, Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

We should not be skeptical of miraculous claims that confirm Christianity.
We should be skeptical of miraculous claims from other faith traditions.

I don't believe anyone here has claimed either of these things.