Animals Doing What Animals Do...

[seer]

Arbitrary: depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary)

How is "don't harm others" arbitrary? It does not matter whether a particular individual or a group of people agrees with the standard or not. How are you using the word 'arbitrary'? It seems as though you think it means "that about which all people everywhere always agree."

After you explain what you mean by arbitrary, please explain how your theistic system escapes this charge, whereas a non-theistic system does not.

Look at your definition: Arbitrary: depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law. And: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.

You are speaking of individual or even collective discretion or preference.

[seer]

As I understand it, there are a growing number of Biblical scholars who don't even believe in angels. If that's where this logic leads me, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I don't have an alternative answer to that at this time.

Well Christ did believe in and teach about angelic beings. Why would we take Biblical scholars over Him?

When a judge sentences someone to jail time, it doesn't mean that it's acceptable for a private citizen to kidnap the convicted and hold them in their basement for the same amount of time, does it? God is the one who exacts vengeance, not men who claim they were told to do it by Him.

Would it be just for those appointed by the judge to take the man to prison and hold him there?

[Kelp(p)]

Well Christ did believe in and teach about angelic beings. Why would we take Biblical scholars over Him?

Did He? I've seen scholars claim that "angels" in Scripture are always a metaphor for God's direct activity (and no, I'm not just talking about the capital A, "Angel of the Lord). And even if Christ did believe in angels, I'm not convinced that He was omniscient here on earth. He was also a man of his day.

Would it be just for those appointed by the judge to take the man to prison and hold him there?

Yes, but you're talking about the pragmatism of earthly justice required for a functioning society. God has unlimited options.

[seer]

Did He? I've seen scholars claim that "angels" in Scripture are always a metaphor for God's direct activity (and no, I'm not just talking about the capital A, "Angel of the Lord). And even if Christ did believe in angels, I'm not convinced that He was omniscient here on earth. He was also a man of his day.

Then I guess He could have been wrong about that love your neighbor thing too.

Yes, but you're talking about the pragmatism of earthly justice required for a functioning society. God has unlimited options.

Yes, and one of those options is to remove wicked men from earth.

[Kelp(p)]

Then I guess He could have been wrong about that love your neighbor thing too.

Not possible. If He didn't care about love, then God would not have created us. Love is the foundation of every other interpretation of His character.

Yes, and one of those options is to remove wicked men from earth.

Are you saying that the Amalekites only existed because God wanted to see the Israelites slaughter them?

[Kelp(p)]

The thread this is from is about YEC, but I think oxmixmudd does a good job summing up part of my issue with the idea that God orders people to kill one another (emphasis mine):

I believe most people that hold to YEC do so out of a sense of need and heartfelt desire to be faithful to God coupled with (what I believe to be) a misunderstanding of what God is saying in these early chapters. The being faithful to God is a good thing - mostly. But consider also that Radical Muslims who blow themselves up and take innocent lives with them ALSO believe they are being faithful to God. So it IS important what kind of faithfulness we are talking about. It can't be blind, radicalized, fearful adherence to indoctrination or dogma. There HAS to be some reason associated with it, and it MUST be permeated with Grace and Love or it WILL go the way our sinful natures will drive it - towards something damaging. That is just who we are apart from Christ. And adding to this, when we are afraid or weak in faith, we are vulnerable to those that would reassure us things are ok even if their words are falsehoods.

[The Pixie]

No, either you missed the point or you are purposely avoiding the point. Again, why is murder wrong - because YOU say so? What do you offer apart from your subjective opinion. I have asked you time and time again Pixie to provide a rational justification apart from mere assertion and emotionalism. Bottom line - you live in a meaningless universe, on a meaningless planet and we are meaningless creatures - with no more inherent worth than a common housefly. But your moral choices are somehow meaningful?

Maybe in your opinion, but I disagree. Let me be quite clear that in my world life is not so meaningless that God the right to take it away if he happens to feel like it.

To each other we have meaning. We give each other meaning. What we do, who we love, has an impact, and therefore a meaning on other sentient beings (okay, I am saying the same thing, but it seems to take a lot for it to penetrate). And therefore if you kill another sentient being that has meaning too. It is wrong because it has a bad impact on other people. Like slavery has a bad impact, so it is wrong.

The bottomline is that I have tried to convey to you why murder is necessarily wrong, and time and again you have failed to get it. I think that that is a sad indictment of your Christian morality.

Worse still, your position is clearly incoherent. You say murder is wrong because God says it is wrong, and yet you seem to know that slavery is wrong too, despite the Bible promoting it. You claim to follow Jesus' teachings and example, but still live a life of comparative luxury.

[seer]

Are you saying that the Amalekites only existed because God wanted to see the Israelites slaughter them?

No, since I'm a believer in freedom of the will, I believe that at times God can and does remove wicked men from the earth. No matter the means.

[seer]

To each other we have meaning. We give each other meaning. What we do, who we love, has an impact, and therefore a meaning on other sentient beings (okay, I am saying the same thing, but it seems to take a lot for it to penetrate). And therefore if you kill another sentient being that has meaning too. It is wrong because it has a bad impact on other people. Like slavery has a bad impact, so it is wrong.

Really? If all humanity was wiped out in the next second would it make any difference?

[Kelp(p)]

Really? If all humanity was wiped out in the next second would it make any difference?

If God decided to annihilate everyone and not give us an afterlife would it make any difference?

[Kelp(p)]

No, since I'm a believer in freedom of the will, I believe that at times God can and does remove wicked men from the earth.

Me too. But I believe He doesn't use people to go so.

[seer]

Me too. But I believe He doesn't use people to go so.

OK...

[seer]

If God decided to annihilate everyone and not give us an afterlife would it make any difference?

Nope... Unless it made a difference to God...

[Paprika]

Right. So you have given all your money to the poor, as Jesus told his followers.

Because we are to give up "all" we have and follow the itinerant rabbi around Judea, Samaria, and wherever he may choose to go

Protip: you can't extrapolate everything as a universal command.

Basically, you treat the Bible as a moral smorgasbord, and just pick and choose the bits you want. You will keep the prohibitions against murder and stealing of the OT, oh and against homosexuality. But you want to eat pork and lobster. And obviously you want your car and your house, so you will twist Jesus' words about property to mean something else.

Because the New Testament says nothing at about about being allowed to eat all foods, and this freedom is something Christians cooked up in the 20th century in the homosexuality cultural wars.

[Kelp(p)]

Nope... Unless it made a difference to God...

Then why chide Pixie for finding meaning in his loved ones and fellow people just because he believes death is the end of our existence?