Originally posted by ChaosRain
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell thinking for myself brought me to the point of receiving Christ as my Lord and Savior. And now He owns me - purchased me, redeemed me with His blood. Listen Chaos I was agnostic for my first 37 years - simply, you have nothing to offer but hopelessness and death.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd the Communists disagree with you - now who is correct?
Sorry, I am struggling to get you here. Murder is wrong. It does not matter if communists disagree. It does not matter if the Bible says people who smash kids against rocks will be blessed. It is wrong.
First all life was harsh back then.
What are you trying to say here exactly, seer? Are you saying that morality changes depending on the culture? Think carefully before replying.
Second, slavery in the west was based on kidnapping - "man-stealing" in Scripture is forbidden.
That would be like in the American colonies then. Slave owners in North America did not capture slaves themselves, they bought them from other nations. Very Biblical.
Second, for the most part (except as plunder during war) there is no evidence that men were forced into slavery. It was not uncommon for men to become slaves to better their lot in life - it was better than starving.
What I do not get is why you seem to be arguing that the Bible does not promote slavery. Accept that it does! Your morality comes from God, via the Bible, and if the Bible says slavery is good, then slavery must be good. It is kind of like you know slavery is wrong despite what the Bible says.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostYou think whether murder is morally wrong depends on what communists think?
Sorry, I am struggling to get you here. Murder is wrong. It does not matter if communists disagree. It does not matter if the Bible says people who smash kids against rocks will be blessed. It is wrong.
morality was different?
What are you trying to say here exactly, seer? Are you saying that morality changes depending on the culture? Think carefully before replying.
Let me put it this way. Somethings in the Old Testament seem to contradict the teachings of Christ. Now some of that stuff could have been ordered by God - if it was I have to trust that God knew what He was doing. If God exists there could be no higher standard for ethics or goodness, even if we find these things harsh. In the mean time, as a Christian, I'm explicitly called to follow the teachings and example of Christ.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course. God is the very source of goodness, His immutable nature is good, He could only, by that nature, order that which is good. Kelp do you believe that God is subordinate to an external moral law or rule?
On the other hand, your idea of God being the "very source of goodness" seems to be, "God has seemingly arbitrary whims, commanding preservation of life one moment and then killing the next and we'll just agree to call the current flavor 'good." "Good and evil," don't exist for you. There's just, "what God wants at the moment," and "what God doesn't want at the moment."
That makes Christianity completely unstable as a way to live one's life. I'd rather join the Church of Satan, at least they have a moral theory.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Pixie, whether murder is wrong is merely a matter of opinion.
And your opinion is no more objectively valid or correct than the Communists. Look at it this way - if you had grown up under Mao and were in the "Party" you, most likely, would have condoned the large scale murder of dissents. You may have even participated.
No, I'm say that as a Christian I get my moral marching orders from the teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general. That Christ, more and any other Old Testament prophet or leader, more clearly revealed the mind and heart of God.
Oh, no, wait. You do not follow that rule either.
Basically, you treat the Bible as a moral smorgasbord, and just pick and choose the bits you want. You will keep the prohibitions against murder and stealing of the OT, oh and against homosexuality. But you want to eat pork and lobster. And obviously you want your car and your house, so you will twist Jesus' words about property to mean something else.
Then you will start a thread about how meaningless atheist morality is. Can you see the irony?
Let me put it this way. Somethings in the Old Testament seem to contradict the teachings of Christ. Now some of that stuff could have been ordered by God - if it was I have to trust that God knew what He was doing.
If God exists there could be no higher standard for ethics or goodness, even if we find these things harsh. In the mean time, as a Christian, I'm explicitly called to follow the teachings and example of Christ.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostNo, I believe that God is a God of life who created us to live and flourish with Him forever and so He commands things to that end. If you want to call that "subordination," go ahead. At that point you're applying distinctions so fine as to be meaningless. You might as well say that God is "subordinate" to the laws of logic because He can't make a square circle.
On the other hand, your idea of God being the "very source of goodness" seems to be, "God has seemingly arbitrary whims, commanding preservation of life one moment and then killing the next and we'll just agree to call the current flavor 'good." "Good and evil," don't exist for you. There's just, "what God wants at the moment," and "what God doesn't want at the moment."
That makes Christianity completely unstable as a way to live one's life. I'd rather join the Church of Satan, at least they have a moral theory.Last edited by seer; 11-20-2014, 09:09 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostAnd do you think that my actions would then be morally right? I think they would not. It does not matter if you are committing murder for an idealogy or a religion, it is still wrong. Even if you think it is right. It is still wrong.Last edited by seer; 11-20-2014, 09:13 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat are you talking about. How do you go from God being the very source of goodness to arbitrary commands? It is the very opposite. God's immutable moral nature prevents any such arbitrariness.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostIn theory, yeah. But if "kill this guy because I said so" and "don't kill these guys because I said so" are both equally good, then you really don't have anything at all in the real world. God being the source of goodness is a meaningless category unless it can tell us something about what goodness actually is. I believe the New Testament gives us a lot of information about what goodness means, but you put an asterisk saying, "unless God tells you to do the opposite" next to almost all of those statements.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell thinking for myself brought me to the point of receiving Christ as my Lord and Savior. And now He owns me - purchased me, redeemed me with His blood. Listen Chaos I was agnostic for my first 37 years - simply, you have nothing to offer but hopelessness and death.
I can't say that I blame you. I'm sure it must be the best feeling in the world - to live life truly believing that there's something better waiting for you when you die. I wish I could share the same beliefs as you do; truly, I do. I wish I could believe in an afterlife, and a loving creator god. I wish it were real. But, I am cursed with the mentality of a realist; forced to accept what is most clear to me. I lack the capabilities for faith that you possess, and for that, I envy you greatly.
But, hopelessness and death? Nay. Hope comes and goes for all of us. As an anti-theist, I have hope that one day, the people of the world will stop letting religion decide who they love or hate or hug or kill or heal or crush; when people can work together to solve greater issues in the world. Hope is one thing that we both share. Death seems to be one of the defining differences between us, however; you find it more palatable to believe that when you die, you'll float up to a wonderful, blissful heaven, where you will spend eternity. I, however, am incapable of allowing for such a luxury. Once again, I envy your faith, but cannot profess that it is possible for me to share it with you.“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins
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Originally posted by seer View PostI have no idea where you are coming from Kelp. Does not God have the right to judge or even destroy sinners?
I don't see the continuity between that and ordering the Israelites to slaughter the Amalekites- or ordering the people of Jonestown to commit mass suicide, which are essentially the same thing in the world of your morality (No, I'm not accusing you of believing in Jim Jones. I'm saying that if you knew God was telling you to force poison Flavor-Aid on your family, you would have to).Last edited by Kelp(p); 11-20-2014, 10:19 AM.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostI'm saying that if you knew God was telling you to force poison Flavor-Aid on your family, you would have to).“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins
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Originally posted by seer View PostReally? Why is harm the standard? Says who?
If you don't think harming others is immoral, there is probably nothing else anyone could say that would persuade you.
Why does there need to be some authority that says harming others is wrong? Would that make it somehow really wrong in your opinion? Why would that be? I imagine you might say harming others is wrong because God says so or because it goes against God's nature or something like that. I could further ask you "Why does God saying so make something right or wrong?" Or "why does God's nature determine morality?" At some point you will get to the place where you can provide no further justification. One can always ask why such and such is a standard no matter what standard is chosen, whether theistic or otherwise. At some point one must stop.
It seems to me that adding God into the mix only further complicates the issue, rather than helping. For then you must also try to determine God's will or nature, something about which even Christians disagree significantly. Christians believing in the same God and bible disagree about many significant moral issues today: abortion, capital punishment, birth-control, stem-cell research, homosexuality, Sabbath observance, alcohol use, etc. This is not to mention the disagreements with other theistic systems such as Islam, where some adherents think god wants them to kill everyone who disagrees with them. Does having a god who somehow provides the basis for morality really help resolve these issues?
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