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The Rachael Slick question.

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  • The Rachael Slick question.

    From here:
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...res-her-story/

    Rachael asked Alex:

    “If God was absolutely moral, because morality was absolute, and if the nature of “right” and “wrong” surpassed space, time, and existence, and if it was as much a fundamental property of reality as math, then why were some things a sin in the Old Testament but not a sin in the New Testament?”

    She goes on:

    “Alex had no answer — and I realized I didn’t either. Everyone had always explained this problem away using the principle that Jesus’ sacrifice meant we wouldn’t have to follow those ancient laws. 
But that wasn’t an answer. In fact, by the very nature of the problem, there was no possible answer that would align with Christianity.”

    What is the answer?
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    Give us an example of something that was a moral sin in the OT but not in the NT.

    Comment


    • #3
      Rachel is wrong. It is an answer; it's just incomplete. The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are different, and thus have different requirements for keeping them. Rachel is confusing requirements for keeping the Mosaic covenant with absolute morality.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        A lot of it seems to come down to the occasion of a given law.

        Christians are not bound to the Old Covenant (the letter of the law), but to a New Covenant in Jesus (who is said to be the fulfillment of the law). That's a pretty big message in the Pauline corpus (see 2 Cor and Galatians for instance), and the reason why he sometimes butted heads with the leadership in Jerusalem.

        As I understand it, generally speaking, the Old Testament law was divided into 3 major parts: mishpatim (moral), hukkim (ceremonial), and various civil or judicial laws that sometimes bled into the first two.

        The first, mishpatim, covered things like honoring of parents, sexual conduct, rules against murder, theft, rape, humane treatment of enemies, and so on. The second, hukkim, covered things that made the nation of Israel stand out distinct as a tribe of God's people, like dietary restrictions, ritual cleanliness rules, shaving corners of beards, not getting tattoos, that sort of thing. The final set of laws dealt more with the civil affairs of the nation state of Israel pre-diaspora. I believe it includes mainly legal rules for things like, say, the damages due for the accidental maiming or death of another Israeli, rules for settling certain disputes, and that sort of thing.

        The New Testament epistles paint a pretty vivid picture that Christians will naturally follow moral laws as new creations in Jesus, and are not bound to Jewish ceremonial laws under the New Covenant (no longer a need to distinguish oneself from the Gentiles when you are a Gentile). And since civil laws really only applied to the nation-state of Israel anyways, Gentiles not born within that nation-state weren't obliged to obey them (then again, as a Roman province in the first century, non-Christian Jews weren't always obliged or able to obey the ancient civil laws either...).

        Was there a specific moral law that was in mind?
        Last edited by Adrift; 11-07-2014, 10:13 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Give us an example of something that was a moral sin in the OT but not in the NT.
          OT food laws (overwritten?) in Acts 10, Peter’s tablecloth vision.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            OT food laws (overwritten?) in Acts 10, Peter’s tablecloth vision.
            Those are not moral laws. Morals have to do with behaviors and ethics, not eating. Food laws were about purity and separation as a people from those around them.

            Try again.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              OT food laws (overwritten?) in Acts 10, Peter’s tablecloth vision.
              That wasn't about Jews eating non-kosher but about eating with uncircumcised Gentiles which was only tradition. Jews are still bound to all Torah, Gentiles only some of it, see Acts 15. Just like in Judaism with Noahide Laws, Gentiles aren't obligated to observe ceremonial Torah.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Those are not moral laws. Morals have to do with behaviors and ethics, not eating. Food laws were about purity and separation as a people from those around them.

                Try again.
                Do God’s commands referred to as the Mosaic covenant have a moral basis? If they do AND morality is absolute then they cannot change. What you seem to be saying is that at least some of God’s laws have no foundation.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  Do God’s commands referred to as the Mosaic covenant have a moral basis? If they do AND morality is absolute then they cannot change. What you seem to be saying is that at least some of God’s laws have no foundation.
                  It's saying that Gentiles aren't obligated to convert to be fully-observant Jews, in both Christianity and Judaism.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    Do God’s commands referred to as the Mosaic covenant have a moral basis? If they do AND morality is absolute then they cannot change. What you seem to be saying is that at least some of God’s laws have no foundation.
                    As noted above, some of God's laws were not morality laws.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      Do God’s commands referred to as the Mosaic covenant have a moral basis? If they do AND morality is absolute then they cannot change. What you seem to be saying is that at least some of God’s laws have no foundation.
                      Read what Adrift posted above. You are talking about morals changing from sins in the OT to not sinful the NT. There were also various conditions to the mosaic law that had nothing to do with morality. Like not wearing mixed blends of clothes, not eating crustaceans, etc. Those are ceremonial requirements, not moral based.

                      So can you give me an example of some moral that was a sin in the OT and not in the NT, or not?

                      Morals are things like murder, stealing, rape, adultery, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This article helps explain the difference:

                        http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...ceremonial-law

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Read what Adrift posted above. You are talking about morals changing from sins in the OT to not sinful the NT. There were also various conditions to the mosaic law that had nothing to do with morality. Like not wearing mixed blends of clothes, not eating crustaceans, etc. Those are ceremonial requirements, not moral based.

                          So can you give me an example of some moral that was a sin in the OT and not in the NT, or not?

                          Morals are things like murder, stealing, rape, adultery, etc.
                          Rachael is not asking about the details of specific laws and what they are given for but questions how any command given by God can be contradicted or superseded if it is true that there exists an absolute moral standard (that God upholds). I am not talking about local customs or man made laws.
                          “These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.” - Leviticus 26:46

                          The usual Christian response to the Mosaic Law is that Jesus fulfilled the law and a new covenant was made. But that is inconsistent with any absolute moral standard.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            Rachael is not asking about the details of specific laws and what they are given for but questions how any command given by God can be contradicted or superseded if it is true that there exists an absolute moral standard (that God upholds). I am not talking about local customs or man made laws.
                            according to your OP she was talking about Moral laws:

                            “If God was absolutely moral, because morality was absolute, and if the nature of “right” and “wrong” surpassed space, time, and existence, and if it was as much a fundamental property of reality as math, then why were some things a sin in the Old Testament but not a sin in the New Testament?”

                            and the ceremonial law as not man made or local customs. They are conditions God gave to the hewbrews as part of the covenant (a contract) - but they were not based on morals, but on ways of eating and dressing and what festivals to follow, and so on. Morals had nothing to do with it.


                            So can you name any moral laws that were sins in the OT but not in the NT? So far you have not.

                            Until you do, your objection (and Rachael's) is baseless.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              according to your OP she was talking about Moral laws:
                              I disagree. I think she is referring to the foundation of God’s law and noting that something absolute cannot expire.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment

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