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The Rachael Slick question.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Jesus didn't abolish Laws for Jews with his sacrifice. However Gentiles were never made to fully become Jews, and most Christians happen to be Gentiles, so there's the perception that Christians just abandoned ceremonial Laws. Where as I said even in Judaism the same is true, Gentiles don't have to fully convert.
    I sort of agree and disagree with this sentiment. I agree in as much that the law did not pass away, after all Jesus did say "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." From that, I take it that the law is still binding on those Jews (and perhaps, all of the world to some degree) who are not in Christ. But if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, and I believe this is true of the Jew as well as the Gentile, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. Christ accomplished the impossible so that all may be saved through faith. The moral law is written on our hearts, and those in Christ, though still conditioned by our fallen nature, should naturally desire to fulfill that aspect of the covenant. Its by grace, and faithfulness upon acknowledging that grace, that we overcome. Romans 8 seems to me to have a lot to say on this matter.

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    • #32
      Rachel Slick, based on the article presented, appears to be recovering from a religious cult. Her descriptions are classic: isolation, indoctrination and constant reinforcement of fundamental beliefs.

      She appears to be confused, for she is conflating Judaism with Christianity. Why would you expect Christians to obey the G-d of the Tanakh? They do not worship YHWH, they worship Jesus who was a follower of YHWH. From the accounts in the Christian Bible, it isn't really clear whether he eventually broke away from his Jewish faith as did his followers.

      I am Jewish, and I can tell you that the common belief is that the Law IS moral - all of it, not just the so-called Noahide Laws (Christians who base some sort of hyper-blend of Christianity and Judaism have mistakenly interpreted an act of charity toward Christians [from Maimonides] as some kind of Law of G-d. They are clearly mistaken). At any rate, most Christians I know wantonly disobey even these moral laws (idolatry, sexual purity and the prohibition of eating non-Kosher prepared meats are the biggest ones).

      So, Christians are not bound by G-d's Law. No harm, no foul. It's their religion. They can make their own rules.

      NORM
      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

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      • #33
        Originally posted by NormATive View Post
        Rachel Slick, based on the article presented, appears to be recovering from a religious cult. Her descriptions are classic: isolation, indoctrination and constant reinforcement of fundamental beliefs.

        She appears to be confused, for she is conflating Judaism with Christianity. Why would you expect Christians to obey the G-d of the Tanakh? They do not worship YHWH, they worship Jesus who was a follower of YHWH. From the accounts in the Christian Bible, it isn't really clear whether he eventually broke away from his Jewish faith as did his followers.

        I am Jewish, and I can tell you that the common belief is that the Law IS moral - all of it, not just the so-called Noahide Laws (Christians who base some sort of hyper-blend of Christianity and Judaism have mistakenly interpreted an act of charity toward Christians [from Maimonides] as some kind of Law of G-d. They are clearly mistaken). At any rate, most Christians I know wantonly disobey even these moral laws (idolatry, sexual purity and the prohibition of eating non-Kosher prepared meats are the biggest ones).

        So, Christians are not bound by G-d's Law. No harm, no foul. It's their religion. They can make their own rules.

        NORM
        Its been awhile, but I think last time I talked to you Norm you didn't believe in YHWH, you were agnostic or something. Has that changed? For the record, Christians maintain that they worship YHWH.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Its been awhile, but I think last time I talked to you Norm you didn't believe in YHWH, you were agnostic or something. Has that changed? For the record, Christians maintain that they worship YHWH.
          What I do or don't believe is immaterial to this discussion.

          Christians have been deceived into thinking that they worship the G-d of the Tanakh, but that is clearly not the case. They worship Jesus of Galilee. Just peruse any Christian hymnal, and you will see 90 percent of the songs are directed toward Jesus, not G-d. Before nearly every Christian worship service, some sort of creed vowing allegiance to Jesus is recited.

          In our services, we sing the Psalms in Hebrew (G-d's language).

          I know that they think the manufactured mechanism of the so-called Holy Trinity ameliorates the blasphemy of worshiping a false god, but according to my sources, G-d is not fooled.

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

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          • #35
            Originally posted by NormATive View Post
            What I do or don't believe is immaterial to this discussion.
            Seems sort of relevant to me if you're speaking for a religion that you have no faith in.

            Christians have been deceived into thinking that they worship the G-d of the Tanakh, but that is clearly not the case. They worship Jesus of Galilee. Just peruse any Christian hymnal, and you will see 90 percent of the songs are directed toward Jesus, not G-d. Before nearly every Christian worship service, some sort of creed vowing allegiance to Jesus is recited.
            Sorry, that hasn't been my experience. Probably a good 70-80 percent (or more) of the songs in the worship services I've been a member of have exclusively referred to God the father, or even to his many other names like El Shaddai, Jehovah-Jireh, or Elohim. And when the mention of Jesus has been brought up in worship its usually within a Trinitarian paradigm.

            In our services, we sing the Psalms in Hebrew (G-d's language).

            I know that they think the manufactured mechanism of the so-called Holy Trinity ameliorates the blasphemy of worshiping a false god, but according to my sources, G-d is not fooled.

            NORM
            You don't even believe in God, why should you care how God is worshiped?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by NormATive View Post
              What I do or don't believe is immaterial to this discussion.

              Christians have been deceived into thinking that they worship the G-d of the Tanakh, but that is clearly not the case. They worship Jesus of Galilee. Just peruse any Christian hymnal, and you will see 90 percent of the songs are directed toward Jesus, not G-d. Before nearly every Christian worship service, some sort of creed vowing allegiance to Jesus is recited.

              In our services, we sing the Psalms in Hebrew (G-d's language).

              I know that they think the manufactured mechanism of the so-called Holy Trinity ameliorates the blasphemy of worshiping a false god, but according to my sources, G-d is not fooled.

              NORM
              You already admitted to me years ago you are an atheist, but that's ok you can still argue a good point without necessarily believing it. But it would serve you better to be up front, some of us do know Jewish atheists that are observant to culture, if not to belief in a real God.

              Which brings us to the point: Jews without Jesus are running to atheism decreasing theism among Jews to maybe half of .3% of the world's population, while more than 50% of it accept Jesus in some form as well as God.

              That alone proves that Jesus is most responsible for turning the world to the God of Israel. While being a Jew is simply a ticket to atheism these days. In your own case as well.

              Sorry to burst your bubble again. The Messiah has already turned the world and there's nothing to be said that can change it.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                The Messiah has already turned the world and there's nothing to be said that can change it.
                America is secularising just like Europe. A website like this one puts Christianity under the microscope. Religions cannot stand up to close scrutiny. That is why they only persist by means of heavy and continuous indoctrination, lots of guilt, peer pressure and even religious police in Muslim countries. The human spirit wants to be free and it is starting to throw off its chains.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  America is secularising just like Europe. A website like this one puts Christianity under the microscope. Religions cannot stand up to close scrutiny. That is why they only persist by means of heavy and continuous indoctrination, lots of guilt, peer pressure and even religious police in Muslim countries. The human spirit wants to be free and it is starting to throw off its chains.
                  Nope that's an illusion, some humans just want to have power God or not, and you will always be in chains. Whether it's with Jews or Americans or British or Chinese. You're never going to have any real freedom until you die. And that's about it.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    Nope that's an illusion, some humans just want to have power God or not, and you will always be in chains. Whether it's with Jews or Americans or British or Chinese. You're never going to have any real freedom until you die. And that's about it.
                    Religion will dissolve because people are realising that political freedom follows once you have intellectual freedom in place of indoctrination. There is no freedom in death because there is no ‘you’ to be free. The false promise of life after death is the hook that keeps you indoctrinated. You are trapped by your fear but if you find your way out you will discover that you are not alone. Religious faith is the greatest waste of human potential ever discovered.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      so since FF can't support his initial OP, he is back to running his mouth claiming religion will disappear one day.

                      It's like he is a 3 year-old who, after trying to talk his parents into something and they refuse, he throws a tantrum.

                      What's next FF, gonna pack a little suitcase and run away from home>

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        so since FF can't support his initial OP, he is back to running his mouth claiming religion will disappear one day.
                        It's like he is a 3 year-old who, after trying to talk his parents into something and they refuse, he throws a tantrum.
                        What's next FF, gonna pack a little suitcase and run away from home>
                        You are projecting again. I already explained the OP but just for you I will put it again in a slightly different way. If God was what Christians say He is, He would not need a new covenant. Divine law given once should be sufficient for all time. This is not what we see and therefore Divine law is a myth.
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          You are projecting again. I already explained the OP but just for you I will put it again in a slightly different way. If God was what Christians say He is, He would not need a new covenant. Divine law given once should be sufficient for all time. This is not what we see and therefore Divine law is a myth.
                          and again you keep moving the goal posts. The Old Covenant was what God gave man until Jesus came and gave us the New Testament. It was a set of rules that served many purposes: separation of a people from the rest of the world, giving men moral guidelines (again which have not changed) and to show us that we are sinners and could not keep God's law and that is why we needed Jesus and the New Covenant.

                          At least try reading the bible for yourself instead of merely wallowing in atheist web sites for your information. At least then maybe you could come up with some objections of your own that haven't been answered over and over for the last 2000 years.

                          Grow up.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            so since FF can't support his initial OP, he is back to running his mouth claiming religion will disappear one day.

                            It's like he is a 3 year-old who, after trying to talk his parents into something and they refuse, he throws a tantrum.

                            What's next FF, gonna pack a little suitcase and run away from home>
                            It is firstfloor.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              At least try reading the bible for yourself instead of merely wallowing in atheist web sites for your information.
                              Not fair, Sparko. He has already showed that his reading ability is not the greatest.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                Not fair, Sparko. He has already showed that his reading ability is not the greatest.
                                Serious question. Are you friend or foe? Where are you on the right wing nutters scale? I assume you either vote for the nutters or you are a nutter but I am willing to be proved wrong.

                                “…… religious extremism closely linked to extreme right-wing political movements. The creationist movements possess real political power. The fact of the matter, and this has been exposed on several occasions, is that some advocates of strict creationism are out to replace democracy by theocracy.”

                                http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/XRef/X2H...=17592&lang=en
                                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                                “not all there” - you know who you are

                                Comment

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