Originally posted by MehGerbil
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Christianity Is Dangerous
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by MehGerbil View PostI'll be sanctimonious with you because I know you can handle it.
What does 'rights' have to do with being a Christian?
It may be rational for a Christian to be afraid of secular rule but we should be trusting that our Lord has this thing under control. We've the Lord of Life on our side and death is only gain so why would be we terrified? Of all men we should be the least frightened because we're the least invested in this world. Granted, that is the ideal but it's one that I want to work towards. What does Christ say, "Don't fear those that can harm the body, fear the one that can condemn your soul".
Do you think it is Biblical for us to be afraid at all?
I understand we'll all have fear but aren't we to work to mature out of it?
The answers are correct, but not appropriate.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by MehGerbil View PostI'll be sanctimonious with you because I know you can handle it.
What does 'rights' have to do with being a Christian?
It may be rational for a Christian to be afraid of secular rule but we should be trusting that our Lord has this thing under control. We've the Lord of Life on our side and death is only gain so why would be we terrified? Of all men we should be the least frightened because we're the least invested in this world. Granted, that is the ideal but it's one that I want to work towards. What does Christ say, "Don't fear those that can harm the body, fear the one that can condemn your soul".
Do you think it is Biblical for us to be afraid at all?
I understand we'll all have fear but aren't we to work to mature out of it?
The answers are correct, but not appropriate.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostAnd?"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostIf you can't keep track of the conversation then stop posting.
You cut out part of my post....Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostIf you can't keep track of the conversation then stop posting.
You cut out part of my post....Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostNo. Religion is a special case. It has always been and will always be a troublesome element of human culture. Its business is brainwashing – have you not noticed?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostWould it help if we were to call it critical thinking instead? Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.
This is copied from - http://www.criticalthinking.org//"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostYou cut out part of my post...."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostOh, yeah, one who thinks every evildoer is a loner. And no such thing as a conspiracy fact, because no such thing as a conspiracy. Sigh."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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As you wish
Originally posted by MehGerbil View PostOne thing that is beginning to annoy me a little bit is the tendency of Christian apologists to wave off 1,500 years of abuse in the name of Jesus Christ as if it were a trifle, a unfortunate misunderstanding, or a theological tiff. Church history is rife with the systemic rape, torture, enslavement, and murder of opponents of the one truth faith. Often, these cleansings were carried out against people whose faith system was quite nearly indistinguishable from those of the oppressor. It is a sordid, sick history of the presence of hell on earth.
I've seen the apologists attack this issue by pointing to the eradication of slavery in the USA. This argument is one of many that just doesn't gain any traction, after all, it is just another case of Christian on Christian violence. Should the skeptic really be impressed that it took a Civil War for a Christian nation to eradicate slavery? Let's be serious.
Another ridiculous argument usually involves laying out before the skeptic some long winded explanation about how the various sects of Christianity are different from one another. The problem is that every single branch of Christianity has violence in its past, with perhaps the exception of the Anabaptists, who were largely exterminated by other sects - we've a history of people claiming the name of Jesus Christ to kill pacifists! This approach is a train wreck.The abuse continues to our current day. From the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, which was systemically covered up for decades, to the bat-poop nuttiness of Protestant Fundamentalists, who engage in the most glaring forms of psychological abuse every Sunday at 10:00am - to the really weird and sick stuff that rolls around under cover of darkness - the history is ongoing and it is a sad, sick, perverted heap of sin. Don't try to sell me the idea this stuff isn't ongoing, I was in a Fundy church that involved thousands of people. I saw the abuse up front and in person.
So here is the burr for me.
When a atheist comes to TWEB and starts taking about 'Theocracy' and fears about the 'Christian Right' and how Christians are bigots who are anxious to use power to destroy other human beings that atheist isn't some off the wall dingbat who is making stuff up. The dude just got up this morning and read the paper. Our marketing problems aren't his problems. Frankly, I hope Christians NEVER get power in any government on this planet again - and if you need examples as to why I feel that way I'd be happy to take you to a couple of churches I know. The sermons they deliver there will make you physically sick.
You are hoping a brother or sister never take the reins of State powers, yeah... as if restricting entry to Christians are actually going to solve the problem of oppression. You are not very good at this "problem solving" thing are you? Cuz we KNOW for sure that those of "secular orientation" will NEVER oppress anyone once they have power....
The skeptics/atheists/militant-feminist-lesbian-meth-smokers are afraid of Christians for perfectly justifiable reasons.
We need to recognize that the fear is grounded in REALITY and that many of these people have experienced abuse first hand.
It is absurd that we expect abused people who are fully aware of church history to come in here and be perfectly polite.
It is a miracle any of them talk to us at all.Last edited by Andius; 01-23-2014, 10:02 PM.Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:
"Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559
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Originally posted by Andius View PostWrong, their fear is based on paranoia, drunk with the discourse that secular statesmanship is the sole means of good governance and justice, as if it were the adequate "arbitrator" within a society with a plurality of beliefs.
Originally posted by Andius View PostIt is a miracle you are even able to relatively coherent sentences [sic]
Do you want some ointment for that burn?The last Christian left at tweb
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Originally posted by MehGerbil View PostREGARDING ATROCITIES AND THE CHURCH
When talking with Skeptics who express fear of Christian rule, especially those that have been hurt by Christians or those who can point to the long history of abuse by Christians, it is counter productive to expect them to recognize all of the fine distinctions those of us in the faith recognize. Double talk about who is a real Christian and who isn't just looks silly. By way of example, how do you feel about used car salesmen? Would you find the claim by a used car salesman "Hey, I'm not like those guys" to be convincing? Of course not. You might come to believe that after he earned your trust and kept your trust over a period of many years - he'd be demonstrating that he's different through personal, one-on-one interaction.
What wouldn't convince you dozens of posts by the used car salesman telling you how you're an idiot for not recognizing that he's different.
In fact, how many posts from a used car salesman wherein he claims he's different would you have to read before you concluded he's desperate?
I've found it's better to admit that those bearing the name of Christ have done horrible things and that the skeptic has every rational reason to be terrified of Christian rule. Expecting someone who doesn't believe there is a God to accept that idea that you're different because of God is ridiculous. After that, go on and develop a real relationship with that person until they come to see that you're someone that can be trusted. They'll know us by our love, Dee Dee, not by our ability to splice history in an never ending argument about who poked who in the eye first.
To summarize this point: It isn't that the answer that is given to the skeptic is wrong, it's just he's in a place where it isn't going to make sense.
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