Originally posted by seer
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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What Is Man?
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Shuny, random mutations that create biological novelty are not directed,
. . . they have no purpose, and they do not aim towards a goal. It is only by chance that we ended up as we did. There is nothing in the laws of nature that makes it inevitable that we turn out this way - that is pure chance.
Your missing the argument by proposing meaningless assumptions. The question is: 'Could humans have evolved as we are today be strictly Natural processes?' Yes it is very possible. Our physical and nature and the evolution of our intelligence most definitely has survival advantage in competing with other primates and carnivores.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
I'm referring to the syntax (i.e sentence structure) of your writing. At times it's so off the walls that trying to figure out what you mean feels more like pure guesswork than anything else.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-27-2014, 06:51 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostTime Jim would not be relevant. If we are in fact dealing with an eternal being time is of no consequence.
This is what I don't have to believe: That this universe with its laws and parameters came about by chance. That biological life came about by chance, the the ecosystems that molded the progressive formation of higher life forms came about by chance. That non-rational, non-conscious forces could or did create something that is not inherent to their nature - consciousness and rationality, by chance.
BTW Jim, mutations my be random to us, they would not be random to God.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain misusing 'chance.' We ended up the way we did, because of Natural Law and the environment within which 'abiogenesis and evolution' took place. Purpose is again a Theistic assumption and not science. Yes, the inevitability as to how we turn out is a Theist assumption, not in the realms of science, but given billions of possible worlds in our universe alone, there is no problem of some worlds turning out like ours.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post'No shuny assumes' is not an adequate answer. post #522 is specific and accurate, and I can easily support this with science. Make your objections specific and I will back it up.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny from a strictly evolutionary point of view did we have to turn out this way? If not, then it was only by chance, it was not intended nor planned.
Again, intent and plan are theistic assumptions. We did not end up the way we are by the dumb layman's view of 'chance' and 'accident.' If you are trying to dialogue reasonably concerning 'science and evolution of humans use proper intelligent terminology that is appropriate.
The meaningful question here when you are asking the question 'What is Hu(man)? is not: 'Could things be different?' but more appropriately: 'Could humans have evolved as we are today be strictly Natural processes?' Yes it is very possible. Our physical and nature and the evolution of our intelligence most definitely has survival advantage in competing with other primates and carnivores.
If you want start another thread: What could hu(mans) could have been? it may be relevant.
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, nothing in science proves that self-awareness is necessary for survival.
The problem remains that you assume a hostile negative posture toward science, use hostile misleading terminology and fail to do your own research to understand science.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-27-2014, 07:58 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny from a strictly evolutionary point of view did we have to turn out this way? If not, then it was only by chance, it was not intended nor planned.
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Originally posted by JimL View Post"Not by chance" does not necessarily mean "intended or planned" unless, as you assume, a mind with free will is involved. "Not by chance" in an uncreated universe would simply mean "determined." So, from a strictly evolutionary point of view, yes, we were determined to turn out this way even though it appears to us to be the result of chance.
My point is simple: determinism and chance are both a bit of a chimera. We are as we are, presently. Determinism is an attempt at predicting the future, and the notion of chance is a fancy word that suggests "I have no idea what happened in the past, but here we are."
Somewhat shallow thoughts, I'm sure. But I don't see any point in dickering over terms that elude actual appreciation.
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Originally posted by Sir View PostI'm entering the discussion very late, so forgive me if I miss a lot.
My point is simple: determinism and chance are both a bit of a chimera. We are as we are, presently. Determinism is an attempt at predicting the future, and the notion of chance is a fancy word that suggests "I have no idea what happened in the past, but here we are."
Somewhat shallow thoughts, I'm sure. But I don't see any point in dickering over terms that elude actual appreciation.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIts not, the third alternative is that the universe itself is not created, not intended, nor is it by chance, but it could be eternal and determined by its own nature, which from our perspective looks like chance.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNonsense, double nonsense. Nothing is considered necessary in evolution nor science except except that all events be within the constraints of Natural Law. Has science shown that self awareness and intelligence have survival value? Yes they have. Just simply follow the evolutionary development of primates and the development of the family and community structure, which as well as self awareness in other primates, and its role in complex cooperative activities of society. Without self awareness and identity awareness of others less intelligent species are not capable of this complex relationships.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe meaningful question here when you are asking the question 'What is Hu(man)? is not: 'Could things be different?' but more appropriately: 'Could humans have evolved as we are today be strictly Natural processes?' Yes it is very possible. Our physical and nature and the evolution of our intelligence most definitely has survival advantage in competing with other primates and carnivores.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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