What Is Man?

[Leonhard]

I think that by calling illegal behavior a "sin" we allow violators to escape justice by them claiming some religious conversion. I've seen truly awful people get away with very bad things because they are able to feign spirituality.

This does not follow, and this is not how the Christian church have read it. If a murderer repents, he could be reconsiled with God and the Church, and then he'd still have to face the death penalty. I think what you describe is more what you fear rather than the actual reality.

You should rebel against your deity. It's how you grow as a human being.

Is this a hypothetical statement? That if God really existed, He had created you, He was the source and summit of all good things, then the best way to attain a good end would be to rebel against Him? Or do you mean it figuratively, that since "God" is only a fictional concept then in order to get closer to the truth and become mature individuals we have to "rebel" against "God"?

[Leonhard]

So, you think your God has placed on me an obligation to believe what you say just because you say it, and if I can't do that, then I deserve to burn in hell forever. Am I understanding you correctly?

I think seer as going for a common explanation for why it is that atheists don't come willingly to God. The evidence is good, there's tons of opportunities, but here you are still denying Him. The idea comes from Calvinistic circles which ignore the traditional notion of free will and considers humans so corrupt that we can't approach God with natural reasoning. Deep down we simple don't want to. If we come to God its only because the Holy Spirit worked on that person, and brought them there.

I do not think he's saying "Believe it because I say so" I think he's saying "You already believe it, but you don't want to, so you suppress it."

I believe something similar, however I just don't think its what you should throw in people's face after a discussion. It makes you come off as a sore loser. "My arguments aren't bad, its you who are bad and that's why you don't agree with me so there!!" I think now and then you have an opportunity to figure out if Christianity is true. I don't think you're doing it actively and continually, and I especially don't think that you right now deep down believe that God exists. At least I don't remember it being like that. At most I wondered whether God might exist, but that's not the same.

Secondly nobody is sent to Hell simple for not believing that Jesus is the Son of God. If we go there we do so, because knowing what the right, true and good thing to do, we've all voluntarily done other things. In that sense, doing just that, we've all at some point in our lives chosen to not be on God's side. So in the end, if that relationship isn't restored and we're back on God's side, then we'll be judged and sent to a place which is lacking God's presence with all that this entails.

Its true that if you become a follower of Christ, get baptised, and you persist until the end living a holy life, then you're saved.

[seer]

You didn't answer Norm's question. He wanted to know whether it is possible that, because of your sin, you are deluded.

Of course, I'm sure I'm deluded in thinking I'm a mostly pretty nice guy or actually a good Christian. But these are moral questions. But am I deluded in my belief in the God of scripture and His Son - no. You know what my initial presupposition is. But the question is silly coming from either you or Norm - since sin does not enter your worldview.

[seer]

You should rebel against your deity. It's how you grow as a human being.

NORM

But Norm I did rebel for most of my life, until I was 37. And what did it get me? There was not a passion or desire that I did not fill to the full - now what? The best thing I can says is that my depravity, in the end, being completely hollow, humbled me enough to finally received Christ as Lord and Savior.

[seer]

I think seer as going for a common explanation for why it is that atheists don't come willingly to God. The evidence is good, there's tons of opportunities, but here you are still denying Him. The idea comes from Calvinistic circles which ignore the traditional notion of free will and considers humans so corrupt that we can't approach God with natural reasoning. Deep down we simple don't want to. If we come to God its only because the Holy Spirit worked on that person, and brought them there.

Just be clear Leonhard, I'm not a Calvinist. I do believe that God, in various ways, makes Himself evident to all men, via prevenient grace. We are all "without excuse." But we must respond in faith a love. God does not do our believing for us.

[Leonhard]

Just be clear Leonhard, I'm not a Calvinist.

I was quite sure that you weren't, but when you tell someone that the only reason they're not currently believing in God is because they're sinful. Then you imply that its only by 'regeneration', that is the overpowering of the Holy Spirit, that you're forced to believe in God. That's the Calvinistic teaching implied that we're so fallen that we can't even approach God on our own, not even by responding to His prodings.

I believe God makes it possible for us to believe in Him, however until we give assent we don't actually start to.

I do believe that God, in various ways, makes Himself evident to all men, via prevenient grace. We are all "without excuse." But we must respond in faith a love. God does not do our believing for us.

We both agree with this.

[seer]

I was quite sure that you weren't, but when you tell someone that the only reason they're not currently believing in God is because they're sinful. Then you imply that its only by 'regeneration', that is the overpowering of the Holy Spirit, that you're forced to believe in God. That's the Calvinistic teaching implied that we're so fallen that we can't even approach God on our own, not even by responding to His prodings.

I don't think I implied that, perhaps (I was a Calvinist for many years, it still comes out). But I do believe that sin deeply affects our reasoning ability when it comes to acknowledging God. It is not merely a question of "evidence" - it is, in the end, a moral and spiritual question.

[NormATive]

But Norm I did rebel for most of my life, until I was 37. And what did it get me? There was not a passion or desire that I did not fill to the full - now what? The best thing I can says is that my depravity, in the end, being completely hollow, humbled me enough to finally received Christ as Lord and Savior.

You seem to be suggesting that the only way to rebel against G-d is to be a degenerate, alcoholic or whatever. That's just weird no matter where you are coming from.

The rebellion I am speaking of involves your mind.

NORM

[NormATive]

This does not follow, and this is not how the Christian church have read it. If a murderer repents, he could be reconsiled with God and the Church, and then he'd still have to face the death penalty. I think what you describe is more what you fear rather than the actual reality.

No, it's reality. I've been in leadership of enough churches to know that this is true. Feigned religiosity covers a lot of crime. I wish it were a figment of my imagination. Have you read about the abuse of children in the Church? Tell them it's just a fear and not a reality.

Is this a hypothetical statement? That if God really existed, He had created you, He was the source and summit of all good things, then the best way to attain a good end would be to rebel against Him? Or do you mean it figuratively, that since "God" is only a fictional concept then in order to get closer to the truth and become mature individuals we have to "rebel" against "God"?

Both are true statements. I think that G-d, if it exists, would WANT us to rebel. This is the lesson of the Shoah.

If I am not for me, then who is? If not now, when? - Hillel

NORM

[NormATive]

Just be clear Leonhard, I'm not a Calvinist. I do believe that God, in various ways, makes Himself evident to all men, via prevenient grace. We are all "without excuse." But we must respond in faith a love. God does not do our believing for us.

What is "prevenient grace?" I've never heard of this term.

In any event, this notion that no one is without excuse can only be valid if you hold a universalist faith (Christ's salvific action covered all people for all time regardless of their knowledge). How can someone raised entirely within a society that has absolutely no knowledge of the Christian Gospel - or the Judeo-Christian god, for that matter - possibly "reject" something they've never heard?

NORM

[Doug Shaver]

But am I deluded in my belief in the God of scripture and His Son - no.

If there is any proposition about which you cannot be mistaken, then with respect to that proposition you are infallible. What makes you infallible with respect to these particular propositions?

[Leonhard]

In any event, this notion that no one is without excuse can only be valid if you hold a universalist faith (Christ's salvific action covered all people for all time regardless of their knowledge). How can someone raised entirely within a society that has absolutely no knowledge of the Christian Gospel - or the Judeo-Christian god, for that matter - possibly "reject" something they've never heard?

The Catholic Church teach that people are only mortally culpable for doing things that 1: they have good grounds for knowing is wrong, 2: that they do voluntarily of their own free will and 3: that its a serious matter, such as lying.

Now if a person who's been baptised, but is raised ignorantly of Christianity manages to live a life where they never commit any grave sins under those three rules, then its possible for them to go to Heaven. Venial sins don't condemns anyone.

However most people have, whether its by lying to their own advantage at some point in their lives, or something else. And its those actions that implicitly reject God that cause a person to fall. The Church has been given the means for reconciling a person to God, repentance, conversion, baptism (if the person hasn't already), contrition, confession, penance and communion. That's the official recipe for salvation.

Is it possible for people to get saved still beyond that? Its possible. Say a protestant who ignorantly rejects the Catholic Church, but has perfect contrition for his sins, he can still be saved. The further you get outside the Church though the harder it gets, the more is required. If you haven't been baptised, then somehow you must have an implicit desire for it, which may or may not be possible.

So TL;DR, its not rejecting Christ and the Church and damns anyone, they're just the official means of salvation. Its the serious crimes against God the persons have done knowingly (that it is wrong) and voluntarily.

Addendum: Having done a sin so many times that its no longer perceived as wrong doesn't remove culpability. If the person ever had an intuition that it was wrong, then that's sufficient, though the matter of assessing culpability is complex and is heavily dependent on age, local situation, maturity, mental health etc... something confessors are taught how to do confidently.

[Leonhard]

If there is any proposition about which you cannot be mistaken, then with respect to that proposition you are infallible. What makes you infallible with respect to these particular propositions?

There is a difference between being and non-being. (direct perception)

I perceive being. (direct perception)

Being exists. (implication from above)

I perceive a self. (direct perception)

There is change in the world. (direct perception)

The change in the world is ordered towards ends. (observation: falling stone targets ground, food is oriented towards feeding people, a knife towards cutting, cars for driving, boats for sailing, eyes for seeing, etc...)

Etc... into tons of mundane infallible natural observations. Things we literally all assume, whether we realise it or not, and that we can't dispense with without incurring severe problems in trying to understand the world. I'm sure you can find some that disagree with the last thing I added, its the only one that's been contented in philosophy recently. However people being mistaken about it, says nothing about whether or not we can be sure about it.

A contradiction cannot be true. (same, otherwise you could have non-being and being)

1+1 = 2 (follows from Peano's Axioms)

There's an infinite number of prime numbers. (trivial proof)

Ex nihilo nihil fit. (implied by the difference between non-being and being)

Etc... into all sorts of abstract, logical, mathematical and metaphysical statements.

Notus: I count the following as something that can be known by natural means, among other things from the above, and not just by faith.

God exists. (multiple proofs based on simple metaphysics and the same for all the below)

God is omnipotent.

God is omnipresent.

God is source and end of all good.

God is the cause of and sustains all being.

God is the fundamental cause for change and motion.

The list can go on, but lets stop here. Yes I think there's infallible things that can be known by faith as well, but that would be a longer discussion.

[seer]

You seem to be suggesting that the only way to rebel against G-d is to be a degenerate, alcoholic or whatever. That's just weird no matter where you are coming from.

The rebellion I am speaking of involves your mind.

NORM

Yes, but all sin is depraved and rebellious. Drunkenness as well as intellectual rejection of your Creator. I have no idea what you are offering - tell me, how will such rebellion help me grow? In what sense?

[NormATive]

Yes, but all sin is depraved and rebellious. Drunkenness as well as intellectual rejection of your Creator. I have no idea what you are offering - tell me, how will such rebellion help me grow? In what sense?

Well, for starters; you will be far less judgmental.

Secondly, you will be more forgiving of yourself. I've noticed a certain self-debasement in your posts that reflect your fealty to the deity.

Lastly, you will enjoy life more fully. You seem to have a rather negative view of the world, so I'm guessing it distresses you much.

I sleep much better at night knowing that I don't have to struggle to understand everything within a rigidly defined worldview.

NORM