Originally posted by seer
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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What Is Man?
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostAs a non-Christian, I disagree. Now what do you think we should do about our disagreement?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostShall I take that as a refusal to answer my question?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI did answer your question.
Now, perhaps you were trying to convey the notion that what we should do about our disagreement is nothing, because I should simply assume that you're right and I'm wrong. Is that what you meant to suggest?
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostNo, you didn't. I asked: "what do you think we should do about our disagreement?" You responded: "Correct, of course you would disagree. Sinners suppress the intuitive knowledge of God in wickedness." That was no answer to the question I asked.
Now, perhaps you were trying to convey the notion that what we should do about our disagreement is nothing, because I should simply assume that you're right and I'm wrong. Is that what you meant to suggest?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, implicit in my answer is that there is no possibility of agreement because of your moral and spiritual state. Also implicit in my answer is that I can do nothing to relieve you of this condition. So yes, sadly, until you receive Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior, nothing can be done.
Also for the most part of Christianity humans haven't been viewed as so utterly broken that they're not able by using their natural means to approach God, though I believe this is true when it comes to approaching Jesus Christ as a savior.
That God exists and humans have dignity is not exclusive to Christianity, but is an objective feature of the world which can be understood and discovered through human philosophy. The Greeks found it out by rational means long before Christians came to the scene, who were so surprised that they were considering for a while whether the Greeks had had secret prophets.
I believe we can do that, whether or not seer has been able to represent the arguments adequately to you, and your own disposition to them is another thing.
I don't believe you're currently secretly knowing that God exists. In fact I'm 100% sure because unlike seer I used to be an atheist, and I genuinely didn't know whether God existed. There might have been periods of your time when you've had opportunities to discover it, and in those instances you've chosen not to pursue it, however I don't think you're actively dismissing it all the time.
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Originally posted by Doug ShaverIs that what you meant to suggest?
Originally posted by seer View PostNo,
Originally posted by seer View Postimplicit in my answer is that there is no possibility of agreement because of your moral and spiritual state. Also implicit in my answer is that I can do nothing to relieve you of this condition. So yes, sadly, until you receive Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior, nothing can be done.
So, you think your God has placed on me an obligation to believe what you say just because you say it, and if I can't do that, then I deserve to burn in hell forever. Am I understanding you correctly?
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostSo, you think your God has placed on me an obligation to believe what you say just because you say it, and if I can't do that, then I deserve to burn in hell forever. Am I understanding you correctly?
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Originally posted by seer View PostI did answer your question. You reject the intuitive knowledge of God because of your sin. Of course you don't think that you are doing that, but that is part of the delusion. Heck, I spend nearly ten years working with the mentally ill, and for the most part they did not believe that they were mentally ill.
We'll pray for you.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI would like to add hastily that seer does not represent the full range of, or even the traditional view of how people come to know about God and of human dignity.
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI used to be an atheist
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostActually I think he's saying that deep down you already believe what he's saying. He's got a bit of a point to it, in that this is possible, but I'm not sure you're doing it actively.
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI know so because I used to be an atheist until recently.Last edited by Doug Shaver; 05-22-2014, 11:32 PM.
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostIs it not possible, then, that it is YOU who are deluded because of your sin?
We'll pray for you.
NORMAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNorm, does your worldview include sin (violation of God's law)? Sin and its horrible effects are a reality in my world, is it in yours? But it is true, in so many ways I am still rebellious to His law, I still sin.
I think that by calling illegal behavior a "sin" we allow violators to escape justice by them claiming some religious conversion. I've seen truly awful people get away with very bad things because they are able to feign spirituality.
You should rebel against your deity. It's how you grow as a human being.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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