What Is Man?

[seer]

What I said was that the Baha'i Faith did not believe in the Christian view, and this is true. The Baha'i Faith does not believe in the Dualism of opposing principles and/or forces.

Shuny, I wasn't speaking Dualism in the sense of opposing forces. Christians don't believe in that. I was only speaking of the dualism of body and soul.

To a degree this is true, but I have reservations to stating things in absolute terms. The substance dualism of the soul and body believed by the Baha'i Faith the ultimate spiritual, intellectual and will nature of humanity resides with the mind soul relationship. Ultimately some sort of 'Free Will' would be essential to the nature of the soul/physical mind relationship, but a libertarian free will is unlikely.

The point is Shuny, since we both are dualists we know that science does not have the last word on this, nor can it.

[JimL]

No Jim, I don't have to believe that science is even close to understanding these things. I mean how many times have we seen science change its view.

No, you don't have to believe anything seer, and it of course is not conclusive, but, when it comes to evidence, science is much more reliable than our subjective feelings are as i pointed out above. If you didn't know any better you would "subjectively feel" as though the earth was stationary, and yet it, along with you, are orbiting the sun at 30 kilometers a second.

And the other point I have been ranting on - if determinism is correct human rationality is out the window. For instance did you write the above because it is true or because you were predetermined to think that way - true or not? Determinism colors everything - and not for the better.

No I don't think so, yes ones personal rationality is somewhat dependent upon preceding causes, but that doesn't change human rationality, or what is rational from what is irrrational, what it does is predetermine who it is that developes it. Teach your children well!

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, I wasn't speaking Dualism in the sense of opposing forces. Christians don't believe in that. I was only speaking of the dualism of body and soul.

Are you saying Christians do not believe in good evil moral dualism?

The point is Shuny, since we both are dualists we know that science does not have the last word on this, nor can it.

There is no last word from the human perspective. The last word is God's domain.

[Tassman]

In short - the difference between "fatalism" and "determinism" lies strictly in the choice {oops: predetermined use} of the word used to describe the phenomenon.

No. "Fatalism" is the passive acceptance of what befalls us. Conversely, "Determinism" is interactive participation, including making choices, with in the processes of the causally determined universe of which we are an integral part.

Given that this argument is concordant with Calvinist perceptions, the answer is obvious. In the ordinary course, humans don't break free of "determinism" - The preaching of the gospel disrupts the chain of causality and makes it possible to submit to Christ. Assuming that the person takes advantage of the opportunity, he is no longer bound by the limitations imposed by the physical universe.

The only way autonomous Free-Will could be exercised is by functioning outside the laws of nature. Thus, in your view, Homo sapiens uniquely in the entire universeCome now!

However, I consider that the existence of intelligence at any level does mean that the effects of causality are not absolute in the first place. Strong yes, but not absolute.

Really! And at what I.Q. level did causal Determinism cease to play a role?

[Tassman]

Ok so you don't have control over what you believe - you can't control what you believe to be true or false. So what exactly does control that fact finding ability?

But you agree that you have no more control over what you consider a fact, or true or reality than a monkey. So what are you talking about?

WHEN and HOW during our evolutionary journey from blue/green algae through to us Homo sapiens we managed to extricate ourselves from the implacable causal chain?"

Unless you have an answer you don't have an argument.

To seer:

So far, I haven't seen anything from the researchers in the field that says otherwise. They're all saying that it is too early to be making assertions.

[seer]

Are you saying Christians do not believe in good evil moral dualism?

No, in classic dualism there are two equal and opposing forces. Christians do believe there are evil forces, but they are not equal with the forces of good. But you already knew that didn't you Shuny.

There is no last word from the human perspective. The last word is .

Nonsense Shuny, it is not merely God's domain. It is about what men are by nature, if dualism is true, as we both believe, then science can not come to any certain conclusions on this matter since there is a property in the mix (the soul) that can not be investigated or quantified by scientific methods, but a property that would have a great influence.

[seer]

No, you don't have to believe anything seer, and it of course is not conclusive, but, when it comes to evidence, science is much more reliable than our subjective feelings are as i pointed out above. If you didn't know any better you would "subjectively feel" as though the earth was stationary, and yet it, along with you, are orbiting the sun at 30 kilometers a second.

And? Where is your conclusive evidence that humans don't have free will? And even if "science" came to such a conclusion how can you know that it won't change that conclusion in the future? So as far as I can see, I'm perfectly justified in trusting my subjective experience at this point.

No I don't think so, yes ones personal rationality is somewhat dependent upon preceding causes, but that doesn't change human rationality, or what is rational from what is irrrational, what it does is predetermine who it is that developes it. Teach your children well!

That makes no sense. It doesn't matter "who" develops it, because everything the "who" knows was also predetermined. And if hard determinism is correct, rationality is not somewhat dependent upon preceding causes, it is completely dependent on said causes. You have no control over what you believe, or how you process stimuli or information, ever - whether it is true or not.

[seer]

WHEN and HOW during our evolutionary journey from blue/green algae through to us Homo sapiens we managed to extricate ourselves from the implacable causal chain?"

Unless you have an answer you don't have an argument.

But Tass, how can we even have a discussion if you are correct? We have no control over what we think, believe or say - true or not. It is all predetermined and therefore meaningless.

[tabibito]

No. "Fatalism" is the passive acceptance of what befalls us. Conversely, "Determinism" is interactive participation, including making choices, with in the processes of the causally determined universe of which we are an integral part.

And by the definitions that you have been promoting, determinism shows that "choices" don't exist. By the definitions that you have been promoting, everything is dictated by, not influenced by, a causal chain.

The only way autonomous Free-Will could be exercised is by functioning outside the laws of nature.

This is a statement of belief that has a body of evidential support that is in turn subject to interpretation.

Thus, in your view, Homo sapiens uniquely in the entire universe would not be governed by the natural laws and constants of the universe if they’re Christians. Come now! Really! And at what I.Q. level did causal Determinism cease to play a role?

No dispassionate reading of my statements could have led to the conclusion "uniquely in the entire universe". Nor could any dispassionate reading of my statements have led to "causal determinism cease to play a role." I have stated that determinism has a strong influence. I have stated that the Christian is released to a far greater extent hmmm. my actual wording maybe wasn't what it should have been from the influence of causes than would otherwise be the case. I have also stated that intelligence itself makes possible some circumvention of the causal chain, as evidenced by the fact that intelligence makes responses to, and some influence of, the environment possible.

This extraordinary claim is not supported by any substantive evidence whatsoever; it’s merely a reflection of personal religious beliefs. Well, you’re entitled to your beliefs.

That you deny that the evidence provided doesn't mean that the evidence does not exist. The evidence that free will does not exist is no more substantive than the evidence to the contrary. Even the researchers providing that evidence don't claim that it is substantive (reasonably conclusive).
Your faith is vested in science and your ability to understand the findings of science. Yes, I am entitled to my faith, just as you are to yours.

[tabibito]

But Tass, how can we even have a discussion if you are correct? We have no control over what we think, believe or say - true or not. It is all predetermined and therefore meaningless.

Oh come now - we are predetermined to have these meaningless discussions - it's all part of the causal chain.

[seer]

Oh come now - we are predetermined to have these meaningless discussions - it's all part of the causal chain.

Really, that is the bottom line if hard determinism is correct.

[shunyadragon]

And by the definitions that you have been promoting, determinism shows that "choices" don't exist. By the definitions that you have been promoting, everything is dictated by, not influenced by, a causal chain.

Actually in even 'Hard Determinism' choices do exist in a fractal pattern with the restraints of factors like genetics, culture and the environment. Many if not all of our everyday decisions fall within the range of hard determinism. It is the decision making process outside this that our free will may exist.

[shunyadragon]

No, in classic dualism there are two equal and opposing forces. Christians do believe there are evil forces, but they are not equal with the forces of good. But you already knew that didn't you Shuny.

I already acknowledged that is the case. nonetheless, the belief in two or more opposing principles or forces, not necessarily equal, is a part of Christian belief and not in the Baha'i Faith.

Nonsense Shuny, it is not merely God's domain. It is about what men are by nature, if dualism is true, as we both believe, then science can not come to any certain conclusions on this matter since there is a property in the mix (the soul) that can not be investigated or quantified by scientific methods, but a property that would have a great influence.

I have clearly stated my view. It is not necessary to be redundant and repeat.

[seer]

I already acknowledged that is the case. nonetheless, the belief in two or more opposing principles or forces as cited.

Anyway Shuny, that was not the dualism I was speaking of. I made it clear that I was speaking of dualism as it related to human beings, that we are not just material creatures. Why you went off on this other tangent is beyond me.

[shunyadragon]

Anyway Shuny, that was not the dualism I was speaking of. I made it clear that I was speaking of dualism as it related to human beings, that we are not just material creatures. Why you went off on this other tangent is beyond me.

Your initial objection did not make this clear. It is ok that it is clarified now.