Originally posted by seer
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostActually, it does NOT go over my head. Thought it has been over 3 decades, I do indeed remember the desire for those who did not believe as I did to be "saved," and the concern that they would not be. While I have sympathy for those feelings, they have no meaning for me anymore. No one is "saved." No one is "damned." We just live our lives as best we can, enjoying what we have while we have it, and then we end.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYeah theologyweb in heaven would be boring without them.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo Star wasn't a bridge too far?
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
In fact, that is what convinced me God is real. I saw my dad changed from a mean alcoholic to a loving father. In fact, his change convinced most of his drinking buddies and several other family members to be saved. Over 15 in all I think. It was that much of a change.Last edited by Sparko; 06-28-2018, 10:06 AM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHow can you be sure?
The preponderance of evidence tells me that god is a fabrication of the human mind; not a self-existent reality. So those are my beliefs until I have cause to change them.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWe all live with a degree of uncertainty in life, Sparko, and the possibility of being wrong. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. I believe it because it has every other morning, and I understand the physics at play. But I could be wrong. I believe I will get through the day without being hit by a meteor. I could be wrong. We take the preponderance of evidence, form a belief, and move ahead with it until a new tidbit comes along to make us re-examine the belief. The preponderance of evidence tells me that god is a fabrication of the human mind; not a self-existent reality. So those are my beliefs until I have cause to change them.
Unless I am right about once saved always saved
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYeah but if I am wrong, I just cease to exist. If you are wrong...ouch.
Unless I am right about once saved always savedThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am not big on Pascal's Wager. It's not an argument about truth. It's an argument about fear. And reason tells me I have very little to be concerned about, with or without a god.
If I argued that you shouldn't murder someone because you will spend the rest of your life in prison, does that make it invalid because I am arguing the fear of prison to you?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am not big on Pascal's Wager. It's not an argument about truth. It's an argument about fear. And reason tells me I have very little to be concerned about, with or without a god.
1.God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.
2.A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3.You must wager (it is not optional).
4.Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
5.Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
6.But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSure it is about fear. If you are wrong and end up in hell, that is pretty scary. That doesn't make it an invalid argument. In fact, it makes it very relevant.
Outcomes:
Meteor hits - I live in a deep cave: Safe, but uncomfortable!
Meteor hits - I live in my house: Dead!
Meteor doesn't hit - I live in a deep cave: Safe but uncomfortable!
Meteor doesn't hit - I live in my house: Safe, and comfortable!
Pascal's wager would have me living in a cave, because all it pays attention to is fear. When you add in the probability of that kind of meteor actually hitting where I am standing, the risk is so small as to be ridiculous to spend time even thinking about. Evidence and reason are far more relevant than fear.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf I argued that you shouldn't murder someone because you will spend the rest of your life in prison, does that make it invalid because I am arguing the fear of prison to you?
High Risk; High impact: Fear is justified.
High Risk; Low Impact: Fear is not justified
Low Risk; High Impact: Fear is often not justified
Low Risk; Low Impact: Fear is not justified
There are few places where I am driven by fear, and a fear-based argument will seldom convince me. You're on more solid ground with an evidence-based argument.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt is a little more involved than that:
It is actually a rather logical argument.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post...based on fear. It says nothing about truth.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo where is his logic off?
There is nothing about the proposition that has to do with the truth of whether or not god exists - just the fear of outcomes based on whether or not god exists.
Truth trumps fear, in my world.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain, we come back to evidence, Seer.
Try it from the perspective of meteor hits. A basketball-sized meteor may strike the place on earth where I am standing, or it may not. I can live in a deep cave, or I can live in my house.
Outcomes:
Meteor hits - I live in a deep cave: Safe, but uncomfortable!
Meteor hits - I live in my house: Dead!
Meteor doesn't hit - I live in a deep cave: Safe but uncomfortable!
Meteor doesn't hit - I live in my house: Safe, and comfortable!
Pascal's wager would have me living in a cave, because all it pays attention to is fear. When you add in the probability of that kind of meteor actually hitting where I am standing, the risk is so small as to be ridiculous to spend time even thinking about. Evidence and reason are far more relevant than fear.
That is not a Pascal's wager construct.
Fear does indeed drive us to protect ourselves. It's kind of like insurance: it depends on the probability of the event in question, and the outcome if it does.
High Risk; High impact: Fear is justified.
High Risk; Low Impact: Fear is not justified
Low Risk; High Impact: Fear is often not justified
Low Risk; Low Impact: Fear is not justified
There are few places where I am driven by fear, and a fear-based argument will seldom convince me. You're on more solid ground with an evidence-based argument.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postagain? look closer.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostExcept Christianity isn't a cave. It is a mansion. My life is much better than it was before I was a Christian. I gain on Earth whether or not I gain after death.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhy not? You are asking someone to act based on "fear" of consequences.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI never said an evidence based argument was not needed. Just that it is foolish to bet your soul that you are correct when you have so much to lose.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt behooves you to make sure on the topic. If it were a meteor, I would not casually dismiss it if there were millions who were claiming it is so. I would do everything in my power to find out if it were real or not.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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