The Atheist Theist Tension

[carpedm9587]

Just a bit of info to consider. The signers of the declaration numbered 56. They included 55 Christians (mostly Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Quakerss) and one Deist (Jefferson). Two became Unitarians (which was arguably Christian at that time, and both Paine and Adams left conventional Christian sects to become Unitarian, and I cannot find the timing of those shifts). There is little doubt in my mind that the signers largely were thinking of the Christian god, but had some disagreements about theological details.

In all, 204 people signed the DoE (4 mentions of a god/creator/ruler/judge, Articles of Confederation (1 mention of the "Great Governor of the World), and U.S. Constitution (no mentions of god, 1 mention of religion barring government from establishing/endorsing or prohibiting free exercise). They were all (with the possible exception of Jefferson and Whipple) one flavor of Christian or another, as far as I can tell.

http://churchvstate.blogspot.com/200...ependence.html

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

For myself - I find it amazing that these men could see past their personal religion to the importance of creating a nation where religion was not required nor enforced/supported by the government. God slowly disappears from their documents, until there is explicitly no mention of god in the entire U.S. Constitution. Although these are the three "founding" documents of our country, the U.S. Constitution is the only one of the three that provides the binding legal framework for our Country, the only one ratified by the member states, and the only one with a mechanism for adjustment over time.

It is also impressive to note that, although they reference god a total of five times in the first two documents, no reference is to a particular version of "god." They do not use the words Jesus, Yahweh, Christ, Jehovah, Allah, or any other term that would narrow the scope to a particular religion or belief system. They explicitly use generic language about a creator/judger/governor being. Indeed, two of the five references use governing language (judger, governor), one refers to "Nature's god," and the other two are to "creator" and the even more generic "divine providence."

That they were Christian is clear...
That they wanted to be free to be Christians is clear...
That they wanted to create a "Christian nation" is not.

It may be in some of the personal writings pre and post...but it is not in the founding documents themselves.

[seer]

The foundational documents of the USA, i.e. the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution, make no reference to God at all apart from the "Laws of Nature and Nature's God" in the DoI. Both these terms are associated with Enlightenment thinking, which was prevalent at the time of the founding fathers and Deism. "Deism", as defined in the Oxford Dictionary, "was used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind". It does not refer to the Christian God. And, even though many of the FF's were Christian, many also had a low opinion of the Christian religion...including Jefferson, the primary drafter of the DoI.

And in my links Tass I proved that they borrowed these ideas of rights grounded in God from Locke, and that was the Christian God. And the fact that the majority of the signers were Christian. And what kind of Deism teaches that human rights come from God? Please reference that.

[carpedm9587]

When did they change THAT!?!?!?!

Thursday...May 31, 2018

Apparently you didn't get the memo...

[Cow Poke]

Thursday...May 31, 2018

Apparently you didn't get the memo...

Fascin8ting!

[Cow Poke]

Just a bit of info to consider. The signers of the declaration numbered 56. They included 55 Christians (mostly Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Quakerss)

Does the double s mean there were far more Quakers than the others?

[rogue06]

Tonight on the Discovery Channel ... When Spelling/Grammar Nazis Collide!

[carpedm9587]

Does the double s mean there were far more Quakers than the others?

No - you insufferable idiot!



It means they spoke with a lisp...

[Cow Poke]

No - you insufferable idiot!



It means they spoke with a lisp...

We need to start a 'mutual admiration of picking of nit society', and we can be charter members!

[Cow Poke]

Tonight on the Discovery Channel ... When Spelling/Grammar Nazis Collide!

You sure that's not collude? And, Russians, not Nazis?

[carpedm9587]

We need to start a 'mutual admiration of picking of nit society', and we can be charter members!

Sequential conjunctions are grammatically weak. The society would be better named, "nit-picking mutual admiration society."

[rogue06]

You sure that's not collude? And, Russians, not Nazis?

If the two of you start working together there can be a sequel When Spelling/Grammar Nazis Collude!

[One Bad Pig]

Because it has the "I did this" factor!

'cause the eggnog's fresh, and I can use the spiking ingredient I prefer.

[Roy]

We need to start a 'mutual admiration of picking of nit society', and we can be charter members!

Only one nit?

[rogue06]

I have a half gallon in my freezer that I thaw out for Independence Day (4th of July)



Been doing that for years. These (had another ready for my b'day) are dated "December 09" [2018]

A particularly good day. A full and vibrant taste melodiously mingling on your tongue. Not as good as crispy bacon (pre-war). But then, what is?

That should be 2017 not 2018

[rogue06]

Disagree, the Pagans all across Europe had the winter solstice as their holiday before Christianity, and it was most definitely co-opted by Rome. Constantine a pagan Roman Emperor with "Sol Invictus" on his coins selected the date for the celebration of the birthday of Jesus Christ. Even the declaration of Aurelian in 225 was concerning pagan celebrations widely celebrated by pagans as the winter solstice. The Christians began celebrating the Dec 25 ~200 AD, but with no consensus as to the actual birth date of Jesus Christ, claims prior to this are vague and undocumented. It is well documented that the Winter solstice as a pagan holiday goes back much older all across Europe for hundreds of years before Christianity.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/wintersolstice.shtml

The Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice (also known as Yule) is one of the oldest winter celebrations in the world.

Ancient people were hunters and spent most of their time outdoors. The seasons and weather played a very important part in their lives. Because of this many ancient people had a great reverence for, and even worshipped the sun. The Norsemen of Northern Europe saw the sun as a wheel that changed the seasons. It was from the word for this wheel, houl, that the word yule is thought to have come. At mid-winter the Norsemen lit bonfires, told stories and drank sweet ale.

The ancient Romans also held a festival to celebrate the rebirth of the year. Saturnalia ran for seven days from the 17th of December. It was a time when the ordinary rules were turned upside down. Men dressed as women and masters dressed as servants. The festival also involved decorating houses with greenery, lighting candles, holding processions and giving presents.

The Winter Solstice falls on the shortest day of the year (21st December) and was celebrated in Britain long before the arrival of Christianity. The Druids (Celtic priests) would cut the mistletoe that grew on the oak tree and give it as a blessing. Oaks were seen as sacred and the winter fruit of the mistletoe was a symbol of life in the dark winter months.

It was also the Druids who began the tradition of the yule log. The Celts thought that the sun stood still for twelve days in the middle of winter and during this time a log was lit to conquer the darkness, banish evil spirits and bring luck for the coming year.

Many of these customs are still followed today. They have been incorporated into the Christian and secular celebrations of Christmas.

© Copyright Original Source

You do realize that the Winter Solstice has never fallen on December 25th in the past 2000+ years, right? If the early Christians intended on co-opting the solstice don't you think they would have chosen the day it took place on?