Originally posted by seer
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Atheist Theist Tension
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat do you mean agree to disagree? The National Archives and the Library of Congress both call the DoI a founding document, it is not a matter of your opinion.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd it is the first of the founding documents. And no other document references the source of human rights, the DoI does and sets that out clearly. And those rights come from God... Like I said you can not divorce the founding of this nation from religion, to quote John Adams:
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity."
https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../03-06-02-0208
https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?
You guys sure do like to toss "hypocrite" around...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNope. The holiday has many names. I tend to say "happy holidays" myself. I tend to refer to it as the Yuletide season. I have to admit that old habits die hard, so "Christmas" escapes my lips now and then. But I'm getting better
You guys sure do like to toss "hypocrite" around...
And no I would not stop spending money if it said "in God we don't trust" on it nor if they took the current motto off of it. I don't think the USA has actually trusted in God as a government in decades. Otherwise all this nonsense about removing any display of religion would not be an issue.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostChristmas also incorporates aspects of older festivities such as Saturnalia and the winter solstice. It is unclear how much of Christmas was a Xtian co-option of those older holidays vs how much is original to Xtianity.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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In order to be consistent carpe oughta shutter himself in his home on December 25th although mumbling and grumbling darkly to himself during that time is entirely optional.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostAnd here's an idea: why don't you (and other atheists) get over having "in God we trust" on your money and let other people who believe in God and trust in Him enjoy their cash without trying to make the whole country change to your way of thinking.Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou are hung up on the word "founding." So I'll change it to "binding" and perhaps we can avoid the conflict. The DoE is a statement of intent written by a small group of men. The Constitution is the document that had to be ratified by the new states, and is the defining document of our country. The DoE's role is not ongoing. The Constitution's is.
When you quote a Christian - you get claims about Christianity. The FFs included men of varying beliefs (though many were indeed Christian). They also, explicitly, omitted any reference to gods or religions from the governing/binding document of our nation.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIn order to be consistent carpe oughta shutter himself in his home on December 25th although mumbling and grumbling darkly to himself during that time is entirely optional.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis was interesting to me, so I did a bit of digging. It is indeed one of two common explanations of the origins of Christmas. As best I can tell, we're all apparently guessing. We know a bit about how/when various events occurred related to the holy/holiday. Given this information, I'm going to abandon the claim that Christmas was an appropriation of the winter solstice and replace it with "we don't know."
I do know that we now have a day that has holy meaning to Christians, and holiday meaning to most people. We could, you know, just share the day...
I should note that Britannica errs when they say Sextus Julius Africanus was the first to mention December 25th as Christ's birthday since both Hippolytus of Rome and Irenaeus both mentioned it a couple decades earlier. Further, the myth that it was done in order to usurp the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti -- "day of the birth of the unconquered sun") is demonstrable hogwash.
That festival was only moved to December 25th in either 274 or 275 (over a half century after Sextus Julius Africanus' mention) by a Roman Emperor, Aurelian, who was not exactly tolerant of Christianity[1]. Until that time the festival was celebrated on various days, as I previously noted, including "August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th."
So if anything a case can be made that the pagans tried to usurp Christmas by deciding to celebrate a popular festival on the same day.
1. While at the very beginning of his reign he exhibited a good deal of tolerance that quickly changed
Last edited by rogue06; 05-31-2018, 02:29 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostI mean it would really just be changing things back to how they were before the 1950s.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday
It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25[1] and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.
This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD, meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around[2].
1. Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel by Hippolytus of Rome. See also Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses.
2. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-31-2018, 03:00 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?
My wife's boss told her a few years ago to stop putting "Christmas" on the Christmas Cards they send out - she's in charge of getting that done.
He wanted "Happy Holidays"?
My wife is a pistol - she asked him,
Q) OK, what Holiday is it we're celebrating?
A) He begrudgingly replied "Christmas".
Q) And what kind of songs do we sing at the party?
A) Mumbling - "Christmas"
Q) And what do we call the presents we give?
A) Cold stare
Q) And that tree, what kind of tree do we put the presents under?
A) Slow burn....
She just smiled, and then he barked "OK, send out the %$#@#! Christmas Cards!!!!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBecause there seems to be quite a few of them here.
And no I would not stop spending money if it said "in God we don't trust" on it nor if they took the current motto off of it. I don't think the USA has actually trusted in God as a government in decades. Otherwise all this nonsense about removing any display of religion would not be an issue.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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