The Atheist Theist Tension

[carpedm9587]

It's atheists having a giggle.

I thought that was FSM? Satanism has been around for a long long time...

Yes. I enjoy the lyrics.

A generic throw-back to paganism I guess. You have to ask yourself though: What's not improved by human goats?

I think I'll abstain from further comment...

[carpedm9587]

You are wrong only in the sense that I really don't care about what is and what is not on currency. It is a silly thing to even be talking about. I tried in this thread to make you see that, and you don't seem to get it.

And I have noted several times...I don't spend many brain cells on this on any given day. I've actually devoted more thought to it here than I have for the last several years combined. I chose a response, adjusted my behavior to it, and went on with my life. Should this become a movement, I will add my voice to it. Until then, I have better, and more important, hills to die on.

The only ones making the words on currency a divisive issue are you and the other liberal/atheists who can't stand that the word "God" happens to be in your pocket once in a long while.

Actually... the words are inherently divisive, but you don't seem to get it.

[shunyadragon]

If these words don't mean anything the obvious thing to do is remove them. They assume a belief not held by a segment of the population.

There are lot of beliefs held by a 'segment' of the population, but there is no reason to assume this is a valid representation of the United States nor the government in relation to the beliefs of its citizens.

I consider it a violation of Church (religion) and state.

[Tassman]

Nonsense, not according to the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs

And again, the Constitution does not deal with the source of rights, that was already established by the DoI.

[rogue06]

Actually Christianity adopted a pagan holiday and called to Christian. In reality all of the pagans over the millennia celebrated the winter solstice in different ways and many of the symbols used by Christians were pagan symbols. Many people over millennia and today celebrate Christmas in many different ways with no religious significance.

It is the Christians that may need to get their own holidays.

The selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday

It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25^[1] and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.

This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD, meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around^[2].









1. Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel by Hippolytus of Rome. See also Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses.

2. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.

[Goulette]

For the record - I don't like the idea of "In God we trust" being on currency either because I don't think it's true on a national level.

After all, currency is the root of all kinds of evil...

[Roy]

Christmas originated as a Christian holy day, and is still celebrated as such by many.

Christmas also incorporates aspects of older festivities such as Saturnalia and the winter solstice. It is unclear how much of Christmas was a Xtian co-option of those older holidays vs how much is original to Xtianity.

[Roy]

So, it doesn't bother you that pagan culture has misappropriated a particular holy day and secularized it beyond description.

You don't seem bothered by Christianity misappropriating older festivities and sacralising them beyond description.

Well, I want you to only celebrate Christmas as commemorating the birth of the Saviour, Creator, and Sustainer of the Universe.

Who put you in charge of Christmas?

[carpedm9587]

The selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday

It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25^[1] and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.

This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD, meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around^[2].









1. Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel by Hippolytus of Rome. See also Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses.

2. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.

This was interesting to me, so I did a bit of digging. It is indeed one of two common explanations of the origins of Christmas. As best I can tell, we're all apparently guessing. We know a bit about how/when various events occurred related to the holy/holiday. Given this information, I'm going to abandon the claim that Christmas was an appropriation of the winter solstice and replace it with "we don't know."

I do know that we now have a day that has holy meaning to Christians, and holiday meaning to most people. We could, you know, just share the day...

[seer]

We will have to agree to disagree. We have three "founding documents,"but only one has legal standing. The Declaration plays its role (as a statement to England of our intention to separate). The Constitution is the document that establishes the framework for our country. The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. No court of law ever goes to the DOE to determine if a law or practice is appropriate. It is always to the Constitution. It is the authoritative framework ratified by the states. The DOE was written by one man and signed by a few dozen others. It was never ratified as having legal standing, AFAIK.

What do you mean agree to disagree? The National Archives and the Library of Congress both call the DoI a founding document, it is not a matter of your opinion. And it is the first of the founding documents. And no other document references the source of human rights, the DoI does and sets that out clearly. And those rights come from God... Like I said you can not divorce the founding of this nation from religion, to quote John Adams:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity."

https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../03-06-02-0208

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

[seer]

More nonsense Tass, it was not the God of deism, as I already proved to you. Please stop fibbing...

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post538934

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post539478

[Doug Shaver]

And no other document references the source of human rights, the DoI does and sets that out clearly. And those rights come from God

OK, so the founders believed that our rights come from God, and they expressed that belief in the DoI.

Do any of the founding documents state a requirement that all Americans must believe likewise? Am I some kind of second-class citizen if I don't believe that God has anything to do with our rights?

[seer]

Do any of the founding documents state a requirement that all Americans must believe likewise? Am I some kind of second-class citizen if I don't believe that God has anything to do with our rights?

Nope and nope. But if you don't believe that rights come from God then there is no possibility of unchanging, universal human rights (well maybe if moral realism is correct). But this was more about Carp's idea that the government should remove all references to God. Which is silly and unhistorical since the Founders believed that God was the very source of human rights.

[Sparko]

Christmas originated as a Christian holy day, and is still celebrated as such by many. It has also become a cultural holiday - for gift giving and gathering. Christmas is more about "Santa" and "Rudolph" to me than "Jesus" and the dawn of Christianity. I have no problem joining in the festivities - I am not celebrating "Jesus," I am celebrating family and friends.



Answered...

But it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?

[seer]

But it has "Christ" in the name! You don't want to use money with God on it. That makes you a hypocrite, right?

Yes the Federal Holy-Day is Christ's Mass...