Originally posted by psstein
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Nobody Dies for a Lie
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Originally posted by psstein View PostI've never thought the "nobody dies for a lie" to be a persuasive apologetic. In truth, we only have first century data about what happened to Peter, Paul, and James. The grisly martyrdom stories are significantly removed from the apostles' lifetime.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI've only seen it used as a rebuttal to the idea that the apostles made everything up about the resurrection.
I remember Nick reviewed Sean McDowell's book awhile back where he concluded that we really don't know what actually happened with the majority of the apostles."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostCheck the discussion of the lifespan numbers there AND in the linked paper.
As for the linked paper, I will be happy to read it if you will send me the $42.50 I have to pay in order to get access to it.
This is true, but doesn't change the later evaluation I made based on lifespan rather life expectancy.
Most of the articles I read indicated that the conjecture was made by assuming lifespans and life expectancy would not be significantly longer in the ANE than they were in the 1700s, when we begin to have better data. I consider that a reasonable assumption. But even if we use the lifespan number, those numbers and the date, plus the starting age of a credible "witness" to the life of Jesus (at least 10 years old), plus the far flung state of the Christian community, makes it extremely unlikely that very many eyewitnesses were alive for the writing of the gospels or Acts. Paul's letters, perhaps, and most likely none for John and Acts.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostI did read the blog post, and it does not specify whether it is including infant deaths in it or not. And since blog posts are apparently a sufficient source, this one states the low averages that people cite does include those, therefore making people seem to live shorter than they would actually live to be once they got out of infancy. It also cites sources. Based on this and some other sources I checked out, it seems that once we remove infant mortality from the equation, the average lifespan was about a decade longer than the "35-40 years" you claimed it was.
As for the linked paper, I will be happy to read it if you will send me the $42.50 I have to pay in order to get access to it.
Originally posted by Terraceth View PostLifespan is generally synonymous with life expectancy, so I'm not sure what distinction you are drawing.
Originally posted by Terraceth View PostI find a notable issue in your analysis. Your argument is that there would have been a lack of eyewitnesses available at the date of writing. Why are we limiting ourselves to that specific time? Is there any reason to believe that the author of Luke/Acts may not have gotten his accounts from witnesses in years prior to full composition of the Gospel or Acts?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI would be interested in knowing if if the life expectancy of 35-40 years for the people living in the first century Mediterranean that you've referenced is the average life expectancy (which would have been influenced by the high rate of infant and child mortality) or the age to which an average person, having survived childhood could expect to live. Because if what you're talking about is the average life expectancy it's not really that strong of an argument against the claim that there were still eyewitnesses living when the documents of the NT were written down, given that a person who managed to survive infancy and childhood would have a considerably higher life expectancy than the average."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI will leave the latter to you, but you might note my later post actually re-examined the entire timing issue with an assumption of a 70-year lifespan, which is not just ten years more, but 30-35 years more, and still concluded that the probability of a significant number of witnesses when these texts were written (setting aside the Epistles) is minimal.
So that would suggest that the author is not an eyewitness, as often claimed. So we are into the "operator" problem, and we would have an author who cannot validate when they are writing beyond "they told me so."
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostYep, once you made it out of childhood in a world before modern medicine, you were more likely to live to an old age.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - that's not the translation. I said exactly what I meant to say."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostTeal, if you have read any of the other exchanges I've had with Sparko, you would no that I seldom argue "there is no evidence," and I have not done so here either. We have stories about the martyrdom of the apostles in Acts and references in some of the epistles. Those are clearly evidence that the early apostles died for their faith. My position is that this is inadequate evidence to support the proposition, "Jesus lived and died exactly as described in the gospels," which I believe is the position being put forward here. I don't find it to "not be evidence." I find it to be "inadequate evidence" to support the claim.
Apparently, at some point, I must have irritated you in some way. It's the only thing that makes sense given the nature of your recent exchanges with me. Whatever it is, if I was being inappropriate, I apologize. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else to say.
I take the time to quote the posts I'm responding to so there's really no excuse for this - you simply aren't reading the post before responding then failing to acknowledge the correction for whatever you misread/misunderstood/took off on a tangent and wasting several additional posts just to get you to address the original point. Here, it was probably an overstatement - had you just paid attention you could have either retracted, conceded, clarified, or corrected to your actual point - and that would have ended the problem."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd what James is this Roy?We know that Paul met James the Lord's brother in Jerusalem Galatians 1:18-20. Unless you don't believe that Christ's brother was an eyewitness.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostAll the accounts agree - in fact, the degree to which they agree is highly indicative of authenticity.Your procedure here, as MM points out, results in the dismissal of most of ancient and a good bit of world history.The accounts themselves read nothing like myth - ever hear a Hercules story where he runs out on his friends when a fight starts?The events were written of both in living (e.g. people still alive to verify) and written (pesky Roman officials and their darned record keeping) memory - even though we don't have the extant records, people of the First Century did - and certainly Theophilus would have had access to the people and documents that would have verified Luke's account...Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostI find a notable issue in your analysis. Your argument is that there would have been a lack of eyewitnesses available at the date of writing. Why are we limiting ourselves to that specific time?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostYep, once you made it out of childhood in a world before modern medicine, you were more likely to live to an old age.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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