Originally posted by Starlight
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Nobody Dies for a Lie
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt's these kinds of simplistic arguments that make you not worth the trouble.
The short answer is that the gospels were written as historical biographies, and they were accepted as such from the very beginning, including by contemporary witnesses.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostTrue - it would dying for a mistake, or an incorrect perception. The point is, all of this falls, for me, into a "we don't know" bucket. There are lots of possible scenarios. Of all of them, the "Jesus was actually the son of god and was resurrected" is the least probable/plausible.Last edited by Mountain Man; 04-18-2018, 12:18 PM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostFirst of all, I'm not sure what "radical theory" you are suggesting I hold. The only theory I think I have put forward is that the claims that the supernatural aspects of Jesus' life are historically accurate require an assumption that, from the day of Jesus' death until the time when the "history" was documented, there was little/no theological impact on the historical record. I don't think that case can be made. We are talking periods measured in decades. We also know, today, the impact of group-think and/or a powerful orator on memory, individually and collectively. Christianity had both, and I see no reason to think that the human psyche was any different in that age than it is in this.
My skepticism remains in place because I am getting a story from someone I don't know (you), have little/no way of assessing their psychological state and/or predispositions, on a website that has a strong "supernatural" component, about a "supernatural" encounter that lends itself to other explanations. A truly gifted "mind reader" does not need to have any "prior encounter." I've been to the magic shows. I've read the literature. I know some of the techniques used to get information out of a person leaving them the impression that their mind has "been read." The more open the person is to the possibility of the supernatural, the easier it is to do. Think of it this way. Assuming you do not believe unicorns are real, if I conveyed to you a story about how I was in the woods and encountered an actual unicorn, which proceeded to touch me with it's horn and heal the bruised ribs I had from falling down only a few minutes before, would it change your beliefs about unicorns? Is there ANYTHING I could say to you here that would cause you to walk away saying, "yeah - I have to change that unicorn belief. This guy is compelling!"
If you read my statement, I conveyed what I believe. At no point did I suggest you believe it.As for god's abilities, I guess I'll leave that to you. When/if I have adequate cause to believe there is a god, I will so believe. Until then, I will not lie about it.
Yeah - this gets said a lot here to. I find myself scratching my head a bit. When we have a disagreement about language, I go find dictionary definitions, ask myself if my use is in line with it, and post the results of that investigation. I can be 100% aligned with the dictionary definition, and someone will tell me that I'm "twisting words to mean what I want." It's an amazing phenomena. I have no clue why it happens.
I think you are very narrowly focused on Christianity, as if religions began with Jesus. I am fairly sure you don't actually think that, but you seem to keep going there.
I was talking about how religions arose in the human species itself. We get clues about that from ancient cave art, archeological digs, etc.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe question is not what is possible but is what is probable based on the evidence. There are a lot more possibilities than there are probabilities. No doubt your claim that the resurrection is the least probable is not based on where the evidence naturally leads but based on your own unreasone a priori assumption that the supernatural is implausible.
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostProbably. People with those views tend to be hounded off the site by right-wingers who tell them they're not real Christians. Sam was the last regular poster here like that and he left in disgust. I still follow him on facebook though.
Sam certainly received more than his fair share of criticism from the posters here. I guess you'll have to see and find out.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostWell, actually the resurrection is the least probable and that the supernatural is implausible should be everyone's most reasonable a priori assumption.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnd nobody did die for something they knew was a lie. Apparently after the supposed resurrection and until (some 40 years) the NT was written, the disciples just disappeared from history.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo has it been straightened out now? The correct argument is "Nobody will die for something they know is a lie"
The Apostles would be in the unique position to actually know if Jesus was for real or not. So...
If the apostles knew Jesus was lying and they were going around spreading a false religion then
1. They were morons because all they did was get themselves and their followers chased and executed by everybody around them: the Jews and the Romans.
2. All they had to do was admit they made it all up, or disappear back into the crowd and go about living their lives as ordinary Jews instead of being ostracized and hunted.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe question is not what is possible but is what is probable based on the evidence. There are a lot more possibilities than there are probabilities. No doubt your claim that the resurrection is the least probable is not based on where the evidence naturally leads but based on your own unreasoned a priori assumption that the supernatural is implausible.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think this ignores a huge number of other possibilities.
People will most definitely die for a lie if they don't know it is a lie and believe it to be true. But if they do know it is a lie (especially if they made the lie themselves) then they won't die for it if they can help it. The apostles had an easy out. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, they could have just went back to their old lives and nothing would have happened to them. They would actually know if Jesus had risen from the dead or not since they were eye witnesses. Not only that but if Jesus had not risen, there were hundreds of other around who would know he didn't rise and would have prevented the church from starting.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou're insinuating that the narrative changed significantly over that time period. You are vastly underestimating the impact that distance had on communication; it wasn't one group, it was many groups established throughout the Roman empire. Paul said that if he preached a different gospel, he should be rejected.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou fail to understand - the "mind reading" happened FIRST in the interaction, with no possibility of prior signals. It was not done by people who advertised their ability to do so - in Orthodoxy, devout people with spiritual gifts are encouraged to hide them, not display them. None of the three encounters to which I refer could be construed as done with intent to display. I understand that YOU would have to have something undeniably supernatural with no possible natural explanation in order for YOU to believe that supernatural events happen. I think it's safe to say that God won't bother doing that for you.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou believe that there's an underlying unifying reality behind all religions? I dare say you haven't looked very closely.
You've made it abundantly clear that you don't want to believe. In any case, why would you lie about believing?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYeah, you've said that more than once, too. I have yet to see you convince anyone of that, however.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'm fairly sure you know that this is a gross mischaracterization. Judeo-Christianity has an explanation for where all other religions come from, and I have yet to see that in any other instance.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostSure. You're only getting a tiny fraction of the true picture that way, however.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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