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  • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Buckel is a modern counterpart of Jesus and you are like the Roman oppressor. He locates the current struggle. You mooch around in the memory of an old one.

    There is a good article here:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...ed-lgbt-rights
    If you're trying to out-do Roy, you may have just succeeded.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      On the contrary; an incorrect perception is the least probable/plausible given the biblical texts. You're free to throw (portions) of those out, but then we're back to lying.
      Concerning the life of Jesus, and the historical accuracy of the claims, I think we have a lot more possibilities than this. We have memory effects. We have psychological effects. We have historical errors due to the time-gap between reporting and recording. We have pride effects. We have the reality that we have no original works of these texts and that period. The list goes on and on and on. The opportunity for error and misunderstanding to creep into the story is enormous.

      Meanwhile, I live in a world where "supernatural occurrences" are regularly debunked, and often a con of one sort or another. I live in a world with multiple differing religions, all with supernatural claims and all refuting the claims of the other religions. I live in a world with no adequate evidence that any form of deity exists. And I live in a world where most definitions of "god" contain implicit contradictions that are either ignored, or simply accepted as "true" despite the inherently contradictory nature of the claims. Meanwhile, the history of how we derived religions in the first place is pretty well laid out.

      I put that all together, and I conclude the early martyrs died for their faith, but not because their faith in Jesus as "son of god" was justified. Jesus of Nazareth was an itinerant preacher in the ancient near east who had a unique view on Judaism, and initiated a cult that would probably have faded into obscurity were it not for a few incredibly charismatic preachers, most notably Saul of Tarsus.

      That is what I believe. I know many here believe otherwise, and that is fine. Religions have been around for a long time, they serve some good purposes, and generally do more good than ill (I think). That may be changing, but I think it is reasonably historically sound. I suspect they will eventually fade away, but not in my lifetime.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Concerning the life of Jesus, and the historical accuracy of the claims, I think we have a lot more possibilities than this. We have memory effects. We have psychological effects. We have historical errors due to the time-gap between reporting and recording. We have pride effects. We have the reality that we have no original works of these texts and that period. The list goes on and on and on. The opportunity for error and misunderstanding to creep into the story is enormous.
        Yet as I examine these possibilities, close examination renders them more and more implausible. The change between "our leader died, and now our hopes have been crushed" and "our leader rose again, conquering death and vindicating our hopes" is not small. The time gap between the events and the recording of those events is rather too short for significant change to creep in - especially when the message has been widespread along with the admonition (given within two decades of Jesus' ministry) to not accept anything contrary to what had been taught.
        Meanwhile, I live in a world where "supernatural occurrences" are regularly debunked, and often a con of one sort or another.
        Does that give you carte blanche to reject all "supernatural occurrences"? Sure, some of them are faked. Have you read Craig Keener's Miracles? Orthodoxy has been interesting. It's been said that some saints could read the thoughts of others - not an easy idea to swallow, but I've had three people relate wholly independent instances where that happened to them/in their presence. Myrrh-streaming icons have been faked, but I've seen a couple where that would be rather difficult to accomplish - and in any case, there are attendant miracles of healing, childbirth after that had been medically ruled out, etc.
        I live in a world with multiple differing religions, all with supernatural claims and all refuting the claims of the other religions.
        Therefore they're all wrong.
        I live in a world with no adequate evidence that any form of deity exists.
        Perhaps your evidentiary bar is set overly high.
        And I live in a world where most definitions of "god" contain implicit contradictions that are either ignored, or simply accepted as "true" despite the inherently contradictory nature of the claims.
        Yeah, not interested in you carpesplaining 'god'.
        Meanwhile, the history of how we derived religions in the first place is pretty well laid out.
        I find it to be rather a case of wishful thinking. I'm not all that impressed the the ReligionsGeschichtliche Schule, which in any case is not nearly as in vogue nowadays.
        Religions have been around for a long time, they serve some good purposes, and generally do more good than ill (I think). That may be changing, but I think it is reasonably historically sound. I suspect they will eventually fade away, but not in my lifetime.
        You're far from the first to prophesy the end of religion.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Yet as I examine these possibilities, close examination renders them more and more implausible. The change between "our leader died, and now our hopes have been crushed" and "our leader rose again, conquering death and vindicating our hopes" is not small. The time gap between the events and the recording of those events is rather too short for significant change to creep in - especially when the message has been widespread along with the admonition (given within two decades of Jesus' ministry) to not accept anything contrary to what had been taught.
          I think there human psychology is badly ignored in these discussions. And you have to remember that the accounts you are reading were written at the END of that cycle, not at the beginning. So the history you are counting on is after the evolution of a developing theology. Paul's letters are within 2 decades, but the gospels and acts were form significantly later, OBP.

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Does that give you carte blanche to reject all "supernatural occurrences"?
          Until one is shown to be valid and not a hoax/con/mistake, I will hold them as "most likely untrue."

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Sure, some of them are faked. Have you read Craig Keener's Miracles? Orthodoxy has been interesting. It's been said that some saints could read the thoughts of others - not an easy idea to swallow, but I've had three people relate wholly independent instances where that happened to them/in their presence. Myrrh-streaming icons have been faked, but I've seen a couple where that would be rather difficult to accomplish - and in any case, there are attendant miracles of healing, childbirth after that had been medically ruled out, etc.
          All of these things can be reproduced by con artists or "sensitives" OBP. The gift of being able to get someone to "give up information" with their being aware they have is not uncommon.

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Therefore they're all wrong.
          You guys do love your condescending emojis....

          Yes, I believe the wide variation in religions, and they continual tendency to fragment, is an indication that there is no underlying unifying reality. Either that, or god is the most inept being I've ever encountered at making him/her/itself known. For an omnipotent, omniscient, supernatural being, that is an odd "skill."

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Perhaps your evidentiary bar is set overly high.
          It is set to the same height I set the requirements for any other beliefs I hold: reasonable evidence.

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Yeah, not interested in you carpesplaining 'god'.
          Oh I have already, OBP. I'm sure my carpesplanations can be found on multiple threads...

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          I find it to be rather a case of wishful thinking. I'm not all that impressed the the ReligionsGeschichtliche Schule, which in any case is not nearly as in vogue nowadays.
          Wow - made me run to my dictionary AGAIN! I'm impressed

          I wasn't actually talking about the bible, though I do think all religions contain common themes for a reason. I was thinking more of how it is the human species derived religions to begin with. What purpose they served and how they came to be so widespread.

          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          You're far from the first to prophesy the end of religion.
          Ain't that the truth. But I'm not a prophet. I'm just looking at the patterns of history, and the role science has played in the last 3-4 centuries, and the demographics of many religions. Whike the numbers grow for some, it tends to no be in developed countries. And in developed countries, membership grows for some religions, but participation not so much.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Well, I have to admit my church history studies are more than three decades behind me, but I seem to recall that there was extra-scriptural confirming evidence for at least some of those deaths. We do know a LOT of early Christian's were martyred, but the ones that are usually pointed to as "proof" that Jesus was resurrected and was god were the deaths of the original 12 apostles themselves. The argument was that they were witnesses to the events, so they would have known it was true/untrue.
            Sure, it's no secret that people, who for whatever reason, have come to believe in a particular god, will martyr themselves for the cause. I mean, we see that happening even today. But there is no sound evidence that the characters in the bible known as the apostles were any more real, or that they died for their belief, than any of the other crazy stuff written there was real.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              How could you NOT know that Christianity thinks homosexual behavior is a sin?
              Because it doesn't. Denominations and theologians are pretty split on the subject. Some are very very affirming, and some are very very rejecting, with the bulk lying somewhere in between.

              It says it in the bible in several places
              It institutes slavery in the bible, and yet we not only don't have slavery, it's in fact pretty much the modern Christian view that slavery is deeply unchristian (including in denominations like the US Southern Baptists who were founded to defend slavery). Since I was well-studied in theology I was aware of all the biblical verses that applied to homosexuality as well as aware of all the modern theologian's reasons, interpretations, and hermeneutics, for thinking they didn't apply today just as the slavery passages didn't apply today.

              My local churches chose the path of never mentioning the topic of homosexuality, presumably to avoid controversy, and when the issue of civil unions came up the Christian denominations in my country were generally supportive. So it took me by surprise when the issue of same sex marriages came up and there was a sudden fervor of anti-gay sentiment and strong public outcry from Christians against gay rights both here and around the world. Going by the gradual acceptance of it by various Christian denominations as well as general population polling, it looks like in 20-50 years there'll be universal acceptance and endorsement of it, which was more the reaction I was expecting from Christian groups.

              and has been a historically held view for over 2000 years (more if you count Judaism)
              At the time I don't think I'd bothered with any sort of historical analysis of the subject. Since the public outcry by Christians on the subject, I've looked into it, and it's complicated. It varies greatly from time to time to what extent there was public tolerance of homosexuality versus a clamp-down on it. The evidence can be quite sparse and is a bit ambiguous at times, and it's not always possible to tell from written evidence how common something is in society. A big changes seem to be a ban in 342AD on cross-dressing during same-sex marriage ceremonies issued by a Christian emperor, followed by a complete ban around the 7th century. Then in the 11th century Peter Damian published the Book of Gomorrah which alleged in lurid detail that homosexuality was absolutely rife among the clergy and in monasteries and he argued this was a really serious sin based on his own interpretations of the bible and as a result there seems to have been quite a clamp-down spreading across Europe over the next couple of centuries. But by the time of Victorian England, society had become very sexually tolerant once again and the sexual morals of that time were anything but 'Victorian'. The 19th-20th century saw another clamp-down on sexual morals, including homosexuality, which some fledgling creators of the field of psychology in the 19th century thought might be a psychiatric condition. So Christian Europe has historically been pretty much all over the place on the subject.
              Last edited by Starlight; 04-17-2018, 08:32 PM.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                Am I the only politically liberal orthodox Christian on TWeb?
                Probably. People with those views tend to be hounded off the site by right-wingers who tell them they're not real Christians. Sam was the last regular poster here like that and he left in disgust. I still follow him on facebook though.

                Does that mean that I am stupid now?
                Sam certainly received more than his fair share of criticism from the posters here. I guess you'll have to see and find out.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                  Why no mention of Ap or Mr Holding? Or for that matter Rumtum.
                  It was a list of atheists. Unless they've deconverted when I wasn't looking, they don't qualify.

                  They are some of the smartest people here.
                  What makes you think that?
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Sure, it's no secret that people, who for whatever reason, have come to believe in a particular god, will martyr themselves for the cause.
                    There are so many other religions and cults that people fervently believe in and die for even today. There was the mass suicide of Heaven's Gate cult members in 1997, there was Sathya Sai Baba who died in 2011 but whos followers are convinced he is divine and did miracles, there were the Mormons who followed Joseph Smith, the Muslims who followed Muhammed etc. The world is neither short on religious leaders nor credulous beliefs willing to have complete faith and fight and even die for their beliefs.

                    Although when it comes to Jesus, any evidence of any of his immediate followers dying for their beliefs is actually pretty 3rd-hand. Nowhere in the Bible do any of the disciples die for their beliefs. Although in later centuries there's plenty of martyrdom accounts of Christians who had never met Jesus. As well as relatively unverifiable and seemingly ridiculous claims about the alleged martyrdom of the disciples (e.g. Peter being crucified upside down).

                    The Bible in fact has almost nothing to say about what those who knew Jesus during his life went on to do (other than the book of Acts noting that they ran a commune in Jerusalem). The focus is on Paul who's sum total direct interaction with Jesus was in a vision. There is actually nothing in the bible about the 12 disciples who knew Jesus and allegedly saw his resurrection being inspired to subsequently to do anything at all particularly great or to die for the cause or anything like that. All of them except Peter are more notable by their absence from subsequent biblical events rather than their resurrection-motivated presence in them.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      I'm smarter than everybody here.

                      We can know this by observing the fact that nobody else shares my enthusiasm for Grand Sumo (aka the greatest sport ever).
                      Obviously, I'm smarter than you - curling is way more awesome than sumo! Bowling on ice with brooms - what could be better!
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Then I think you have not been looking. I have encountered MANY who claim that the martyrdom of the apostles is proof that the claims about Jesus are true (resurrection, miracles, etc.) because "no one would die for a lie." Evidence, maybe. Proof? No. There are simply too many other credible (IMO) possibilities.
                        Argh! All this 'proves' is that you don't know the difference between evidence - or the definition - and proof which is the exact same problem that those making the claim for proof have. Of course it isn't proof - it's evidence. Now, given the actual facts, it's very strong evidence and it would be perfectly rational to accept it as substantial enough to consider the claim (Resurrection) proven. People do that all the time - virtually no one can or will examine absolutely all the evidence for a given matter. Courts don't, either - this is where evidentiary procedure comes in (handling and determination of evidence). but no, technically, evidence is not proof.


                        However, it's asinine to question whether or not evidence directly pertaining to witness reliability is in fact evidence - of course it is. It's not direct evidence of the Resurrection - it IS direct evidence of the reliability of the eye witness testimony of those claiming to have witnessed the Resurrected Christ. How you could possibly have a 'credible' explanation of their subsequent martyrdom other than they genuinely believed what they were saying, I can't imagine - all the possibilities I've ever heard expounded were between highly improbably and outright silly.

                        The OP and this post indicate that you really do not understand the argument and that you don't understand evidence any better than those you were criticizing.If you cannot differentiate between supporting evidence (which is what this is) and direct evidence then one wonders how well you've evaluated all the other evidence you so readily dismiss.

                        It's fine to use your own standards of evidence for your own purposes - it is NOT fine to use substandard standards in the process of debating - and especially not of attempting to convince.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          There are so many other religions and cults that people fervently believe in and die for even today. There was the mass suicide of Heaven's Gate cult members in 1997, there was Sathya Sai Baba who died in 2011 but whos followers are convinced he is divine and did miracles, there were the Mormons who followed Joseph Smith, the Muslims who followed Muhammed etc. The world is neither short on religious leaders nor credulous beliefs willing to have complete faith and fight and even die for their beliefs.

                          Although when it comes to Jesus, any evidence of any of his immediate followers dying for their beliefs is actually pretty 3rd-hand. Nowhere in the Bible do any of the disciples die for their beliefs. Although in later centuries there's plenty of martyrdom accounts of Christians who had never met Jesus. As well as relatively unverifiable and seemingly ridiculous claims about the alleged martyrdom of the disciples (e.g. Peter being crucified upside down).

                          The Bible in fact has almost nothing to say about what those who knew Jesus during his life went on to do (other than the book of Acts noting that they ran a commune in Jerusalem). The focus is on Paul who's sum total direct interaction with Jesus was in a vision. There is actually nothing in the bible about the 12 disciples who knew Jesus and allegedly saw his resurrection being inspired to subsequently to do anything at all particularly great or to die for the cause or anything like that. All of them except Peter are more notable by their absence from subsequent biblical events rather than their resurrection-motivated presence in them.
                          Exactly, and when you consider that the bible was written decades after the supposed biblical events took place, then the future histories of the apostles should have been recorded therein as well. I would think.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Who says it has to be knowingly?
                            Zym already covered this so I won't but
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Well, I have to admit my church history studies are more than three decades behind me, but I seem to recall that there was extra-scriptural confirming evidence for at least some of those deaths. We do know a LOT of early Christian's were martyred, but the ones that are usually pointed to as "proof" that Jesus was resurrected and was god were the deaths of the original 12 apostles themselves. The argument was that they were witnesses to the events, so they would have known it was true/untrue.
                              See!?!?! You CAN do it!
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                On the contrary; an incorrect perception is the least probable/plausible given the biblical texts. You're free to throw (portions) of those out, but then we're back to lying.

                                Roy's mockery is entirely a scenario built on silence, and so doesn't even merit consideration.
                                There are times when i really wish we had pearls instead of amens - that way, I could give more than one!
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

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