Do you believe in zombies?

[JimL]

I think it has been clearly revealed that Jim got SO MUCH wrong about the passages and his interpretation, that he's stubbornly trying to hang on to anything possible to salvage his (cough, sputter) reputation on this.

Perhaps he and Joel Osteen attended the same seminary.

You're welcome to your opinion CP, even if you are wrong.

[Cow Poke]

You're welcome to your opinion CP, even if you are wrong.

Not only did you finally type a true statement, but you used the proper "you're"! Good job!

(I even amen'd it)

[JimL]

It's like he thinks he's Starlight or something.

rouge, go google yourself something to cite.

[mossrose]

The actual passage cited by Adrift, doesn't say what they are trying to make it out to say. It simply and clearly says that no one has gone up to heaven, except the one who has come down from heaven. That is factually false since Enoch, Elijah and Moses all went to heaven.

Well, Enoch didn't come down again, so there's one point you have wrong.

The second point is that Moses and Elijah were not with Jesus in earthly bodies, but in their glorified bodies.

ONLY Jesus ever came down from heaven into an earthly body.

You are picking nits now and are simply grasping at them with straws, or some such mixed metaphor.

[Sparko]

The actual passage cited by Adrift, doesn't say what they are trying to make it out to say. It simply and clearly says that no one has gone up to heaven, except the one who has come down from heaven. That is factually false since Enoch, Elijah and Moses all went to heaven.

Greek to English is not a one to one correspondence JimL. He was saying that according to experts it seems like what Jesus was saying was not that 'nobody went to heaven except him who came down', but that 'nobody ever went to heaven and came back down except him.'

[Sparko]

Because absolutely nothing is known about them, that's how I know. They are never mentioned again. It's totally unbelievable that many saints resurrected in front of many people and then just vanished.

Again, just because they were never mentioned again doesn't mean they didn't live their lives. Not everyone in the world at the time is kept track of or written about. The gospel writers were concerned about the life of Jesus not the saints. You never read about what happens to the apostles either, just some traditions handed down through the church. Do you think some are still alive because their deaths were not written about?

[JimL]

Well, Enoch didn't come down again, so there's one point you have wrong.

The second point is that Moses and Elijah were not with Jesus in earthly bodies, but in their glorified bodies.

ONLY Jesus ever came down from heaven into an earthly body.

You are picking nits now and are simply grasping at them with straws, or some such mixed metaphor.

Nope. You're just missing the point. Jesus says no one has gone up to heaven, plain and simple, no one has gone up to heaven, other than himself, who has also come down from heaven. The point is that according to the bible, which we all know to be the word of god, Jesus is wrong, because Enoch, Elijah, and Moses all went up to heaven. You can try to spin it to fit your agenda, but sorry, that's what it says and what it says is very clear. NO ONE HAS GONE UP TO HEAVEN!

[Sparko]

Nope. You're just missing the point. Jesus says no one has gone up to heaven, plain and simple, no one has gone up to heaven, other than himself, who has also come down from heaven. The point is that according to the bible, which we all know to be the word of god, Jesus is wrong, because Enoch, Elijah, and Moses all went up to heaven. You can try to spin it to fit your agenda, but sorry, that's what it says and what it says is very clear. NO ONE HAS GONE UP TO HEAVEN!

Another explanation is that like the parable with Rich Man and the Lazarus, apparently before Jesus was raised there were two areas called Paradise and Hades that the dead went to and awaited resurrection. The good to Paradise and the unsaved to Hades. Kind of like a waiting place. It wasn't exactly heaven or hell. Abraham was in Paradise in the parable. So if that is the case, Moses, Elijah and Enoch would have gone there and not heaven.

[Cow Poke]

Nope. You're just missing the point. Jesus says no one has gone up to heaven, plain and simple, no one has gone up to heaven, other than himself, who has also come down from heaven. The point is that according to the bible, which we all know to be the word of god, Jesus is wrong, because Enoch, Elijah, and Moses all went up to heaven. You can try to spin it to fit your agenda, but sorry, that's what it says and what it says is very clear. NO ONE HAS GONE UP TO HEAVEN!

Jim, you're fixating on a specific translation of Greek. In addition, you're not considering the context at all.

A little bit of honest work very easily produces explanations on the web, like this one.

"Context" includes 'who is speaking', to whom he is speaking, the general tone of the conversation, the purpose of the discussion, the setting in time and history, etc....

[mossrose]

Nope. You're just missing the point. Jesus says no one has gone up to heaven, plain and simple, no one has gone up to heaven, other than himself, who has also come down from heaven. The point is that according to the bible, which we all know to be the word of god, Jesus is wrong, because Enoch, Elijah, and Moses all went up to heaven. You can try to spin it to fit your agenda, but sorry, that's what it says and what it says is very clear. NO ONE HAS GONE UP TO HEAVEN!

Well, I give up, Jim. You obviously know more about scripture than all Biblical scholars put together and you hate God so much you are bound and determined to prove He doesn't exist.

Have at it. And good luck.

[One Bad Pig]

Jim, you're fixating on a specific translation of Greek. In addition, you're not considering the context at all.

A little bit of honest work very easily produces explanations on the web, like this one.

"Context" includes 'who is speaking', to whom he is speaking, the general tone of the conversation, the purpose of the discussion, the setting in time and history, etc....

This. One must ignore the context of the statement to see any sort of contradiction.

[Adrift]

Well, Enoch didn't come down again, so there's one point you have wrong.

The second point is that Moses and Elijah were not with Jesus in earthly bodies, but in their glorified bodies.

ONLY Jesus ever came down from heaven into an earthly body.

You are picking nits now and are simply grasping at them with straws, or some such mixed metaphor.

I'm not quite certain we want to say that Moses and Elijah were in their glorified bodies during the transfiguration (if that's what you're referring to). The New Testament paints the picture that only Jesus is currently in his glorified body (though he wasn't at that point). Rather, according to Ben Witherington, the Bible paints the presence of Elijah and Moses as some sort of group vision. I'm thinking similar, perhaps, to the appearance of fire on the disciples heads during Pentecost, or the dove descending upon Jesus at his Baptism. There is precedence in the Bible of visions of the spirits making an appearance, so for instance, Samuel. The Transfiguration does likely foreshadow the resurrection though (among other things).

But yeah, the rest you've got to say seems pretty much spot on. JimL also has wrong that Moses went to heaven. Well I mean, he's likely with the other saints now in heaven in peaceful repose, waiting for the general resurrection, but he wasn't bodily taken to heaven, that was just something some Second Temple literature stated contrary to scripture on the subject (Deut. 34:6). Also, he's wrong about what scripture "clearly says". The scholars I cited are taking into consideration the Greek, the direct context of the passage, and the likelihood that the author of John was familiar with both Old Testament scripture and Second Temple literature.

[JimL]

Jim, you're fixating on a specific translation of Greek. In addition, you're not considering the context at all.

A little bit of honest work very easily produces explanations on the web, like this one.

"Context" includes 'who is speaking', to whom he is speaking, the general tone of the conversation, the purpose of the discussion, the setting in time and history, etc....

You know guys, I'm pretty sure that if that was what Jesus was trying to say, I think he would have said it. He didn't. What he said was no one has gone up to heaven except for himself. Now you are all free to make stuff up and say "I think he was trying to say this, or I think he was trying to say that, or you have to take into consideration "who is speaking" and "who he was speaking to," or "the tone of the conversation" etc etc. All that nonsense is just you trying to make sense out of something that you know doesn't make sense.

[Cow Poke]

You know guys, I'm pretty sure that if that was what Jesus was trying to say, I think he would have said it.

Jim, do you have any idea at all what a parable is?

What he said was no one has gone up to heavenexcept for himself. Now you are all free to make stuff up and say "I think he was trying to say this, or I think he was trying to say that, or you have to take into consideration "who is speaking" and "who he was speaking to," or "the tone of the conversation" etc etc. All that nonsense is just you trying to make sense out of something that you know doesn't make sense.

A text without context is a pretext, Jim.

[JimL]

Jim, do you have any idea at all what a parable is?

Yeah, and that isn't one.