Do you believe in zombies?

[JimL]

Source: The Gospel of John, 1-3 John by Philip Comfort, Wendell C. Hawley, Grant Osborne

Jesus' first statement ("No one has ever gone to heaven") is puzzling in light of Enoch, who was translated to heaven (Gen 5:24), and Elijah, who went up to heaven in a fiery chariot in a whirlwind (2 Kgs 2:11). Also, Jewish tradition said that Moses was taken up to heaven at his death (so Brown, Whitacre). Jesus, in a sense, was denying all of this. The NLT's rendering, "gone to heaven and returned," provides part of the answer. Jesus was saying that only he had access to heaven and had brought heaven to earth (cf. 1:51). Carson says, "Jesus insists that no one has ascended to heaven in such a way as to return to talk about heavenly things" (1991:200-201).

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Only problem is that it doesn't say or infer any of that. It simply says that no one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from Heaven, the son of man. That's an obvious contradiction since Elijah, Enoch and Moses obviously went up prior to Jesus according to the bible.

Source: John by Andreas J. K�stenberger

Jesus here answers Nicodemus's question in 3:9: "these things" (i.e., spiritual rebirth) can happen only as a result of Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension (Moloney 1998:95). Explaining how he has knowledge of "heavenly things" (Ridderbos 1997: 135; Carson 1991: 199; Moloney 1998: 95), Jesus maintains that no one has ever gone into heaven except for the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man (see commentary at 1:51; additional note to 3:13). The statement, as Carson (1991: 200) explains, is probably elliptical: "No-one [else] has ascended into heaven and remained there [so as to be able to speak authoritatively about heavenly things] but only the one who has come down from heaven [is equipped to do so]." This characterization is reminiscent of the prologue's portrayal of Jesus as the incarnate Word and the one-of-a-kind Son from the Father, who has given a full account of him (1:14, 18). The present passage combines elements of Num. 21:9 (the serpent in the wilderness), Isa. 52:13 ("lifted up"), and Dan 7:13-14 ("Son of Man") (Borgen 1977: 252-53).

The OT identifies heaven as the place where God dwells. John's Gospel refers several times to a descent from heaven, be it of the Spirit (1:32-33), angels (1:51), the Son of Man (3:13), or the divine bread (6:33, 38, 41, 42, 50, 51, 58). However, this is one of only three instances where it speaks of an ascent into heaven (angels [1:51]; the Son of Man [3:13]; the risen Lord [20:17]). Jesus here contrasts himself, the "Son of Man" (cf. Dan. 7:13), with other human figures who allegedly entered heaven, such as Enoch (Gen. 5:24; cf. Heb. 11:15), Elijah (2 Kings 2:1-12; cf. 2 Chron. 21:12-15), Moses (Exod. 24:9-11; 34:29-30), Isaiah (Isa. 6:1-3), or Ezekiel (Ezek. 1; 10). A whole cottage industry of Second Temple literature revolved around such figures and their heavenly exploits (e.g., 1 Enoch; see Tabor, ABD 3:91-94; Borgen 1977). Although believers can expect to join Christ in heaven one day (cf. John 14:1-3; 17:24), only Jesus both descended from heaven and ascended back up to heaven (cf. Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; though note the similar ascent-descent pattern of angels in John 1:51).

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Again, it says nothing about ascension and descention, it merely states that no one has gone up to heaven except for the one who has come down from heaven.

He then added, "Very truly I tell you, you will see 'heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on' the Son of Man."

Source: John by Andreas J. K�stenberger

To see "heaven open" is to receive a vision of otherworldy realities (Acts 10:11; Rev. 4:1; 19:11). An "open heaven" was every Jewish apocalyptic's dream. This spawned an entire genre of literature in the Second Temple period in which enigmatic figures such as Enoch (who, according to Gen. 5:24, was translated to heaven without dying) are depicted as traversing heaven and reporting what they see (1 Enoch is quoted in Jude 14-15). But, as Jesus maintains in John 3:13, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who comes from heaven--the Son of Man." This Son of Man, in turn, is none other than the mysterious figure of Dan. 7:13, "one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven." What Jesus claims is that he is that Son of Man prophesied in Daniel, the one who has seen God and given a full account of him (cf. John 1:18), the one who was "lifted up" at the cross (3:14; cf. 8:28; 12:32), and the one who will return in all his glory (Matt. 26:64).

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All irrelevant stuff. Elijah, Enoch, Moses, according to the OT, all went to heaven prior to Jesus.

[JimL]

By then, though, there will be a new heaven and earth where there will probably be little distinction between the two. We sometimes have it in our heads that "heaven" is someplace in the clouds or outer space, and that's certainly one type of heaven, but the spiritual heaven is all around us, and in the new age, heaven will come down to earth so that I think the dividing line between heaven and earth will probably be pretty fuzzy. As NT Wright points out,



Also, there's the fact that some of us won't have to die to see the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4), but will instead be caught up with those who have died. Also...it sounds like JimL thinks that Enoch and Elijah were resurrected. They weren't. They wait (probably in peaceful repose with the souls of those saints who have already died) for the general resurrection like the rest of us.

Rip Van Winkles all? Where are the physical bodies of Enoch, Elijah and Moses, waiting in their peaceful repose? Heaven?

[JimL]

The Lord takes us up to be with Him. And wherever He is, we will be with Him.

"And so shall we be forever with the Lord.".

What do you mean by "be with him?" You mean like you'll be living next door to him and hanging out with him, or what?

[JimL]

They rose and went around preaching, then probably lived the rest of their lives and died again. Just like Lazarus did and the young girl Jesus brought back to life.

Don't you think it odd that resurrected people, seen by many, if they went on to live out their lives until dying again, were never again heard from after such a remarkable event as their being resurrected.

[mossrose]

What do you mean by "be with him?" You mean like you'll be living next door to him and hanging out with him, or what?

I think you are being purposefully obtuse. It simply means that in our glorified bodies we will be able to be in Christ's presence all the time. And that is where He promised us we would be.

[JimL]

And wherever that is and whenever it is will be just fine with me.

Interesting, because if you think about it, there are so many billions of people, specifically believers, who no longer live and have been dead and buried for thousands of years. I don't think that they are at all concerned with, or are waiting with bated breath to be resurrected. Once we're dead, we no longer will have that desire to live forever that we have while alive.

[JimL]

I think you are being purposefully obtuse. It simply means that in our glorified bodies we will be able to be in Christ's presence all the time. And that is where He promised us we would be.

No, what I mean is what is the difference. How is being in Christs presence different after resurrection than it is before resurrection?

[tabibito]

Well, of course, but I'm basically talking about us non gods. Once we are resurected we can just fly off to heaven of our own volition whenever we decide to?

I believe that, assuming circumstances arose which made it necessary (or perhaps even very advantageous), a saint would have authority to duplicate any and all the actions taken by Jesus before his death. That would include teleportation - which by its nature would make physical barriers more or less irrelevant. As to having physical access to heaven, I doubt that it would be granted prior to the person's resurrection. However, never having met a saint, I'm restricted to a possibly questionable extrapolation based on the scriptural record.

Don't know what that means. I would think that one is either physical or non physical, not somewhat physical.

It does seem a logical conclusion.

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Where do you get the idea that Paul didn't mean for it to be taken literally?

The body must needs undergo a radical refit before a person can inherit the kingdom of heaven, so 'twould seem.
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

[Sparko]

Again, it says nothing about ascension and descention, it merely states that no one has gone up to heaven except for the one who has come down from heaven.

um what do you think "came down from" means, JimL?

[Sparko]

Don't you think it odd that resurrected people, seen by many, if they went on to live out their lives until dying again, were never again heard from after such a remarkable event as their being resurrected.

How do you know they weren't? Not every detail of every event of every person is recorded.

[Cow Poke]

I think you are being purposefully obtuse. It simply means that in our glorified bodies we will be able to be in Christ's presence all the time. And that is where He promised us we would be.

I think it has been clearly revealed that Jim got SO MUCH wrong about the passages and his interpretation, that he's stubbornly trying to hang on to anything possible to salvage his (cough, sputter) reputation on this.

Perhaps he and Joel Osteen attended the same seminary.

[rogue06]

I think it has been clearly revealed that Jim got SO MUCH wrong about the passages and his interpretation, that he's stubbornly trying to hang on to anything possible to salvage his (cough, sputter) reputation on this.

It's like he thinks he's Starlight or something.

[mossrose]

I think it has been clearly revealed that Jim got SO MUCH wrong about the passages and his interpretation, that he's stubbornly trying to hang on to anything possible to salvage his (cough, sputter) reputation on this.

Perhaps he and Joel Osteen attended the same seminary.

Seems likely.

All of it.

[JimL]

um what do you think "came down from" means, JimL?

The actual passage cited by Adrift, doesn't say what they are trying to make it out to say. It simply and clearly says that no one has gone up to heaven, except the one who has come down from heaven. That is factually false since Enoch, Elijah and Moses all went to heaven.

[JimL]

How do you know they weren't? Not every detail of every event of every person is recorded.

Because absolutely nothing is known about them, that's how I know. They are never mentioned again. It's totally unbelievable that many saints resurrected in front of many people and then just vanished.