Do you believe in zombies?

[Cow Poke]

What's goofy about it. The saints were resurrected while in their tombs and then emerged from those tombs. That's what I'm going by. What is your explanation and what are you basing it on?

Your "climbing out of the graves" is what's goofy and dishonest.

[JimL]

Your "climbing out of the graves" is what's goofy and dishonest.

Okay, so again, the saints in Matthew were resurrected where they lay, in their tombs, so what's your explanation of the process and what are you basing it on?

[One Bad Pig]

Ah, interesting. So Elijah ascended, but he never died. But if that's true how do you explain John 3:13 where Jesus says: no one has gone up to heaven except for himself? And also, because it just occured to me when thinking about this, Moses died, right? And Moses was at the transfiguration, correct? So he must have been resurrected prior to Jesus, yes?

Elijah didn't ascend to heaven, but was taken up (same with Enoch).

The three apostles with Jesus saw Moses at the transfiguration along with Elijah, but there's a qualitative difference between the resurrection of Jesus/the general resurrection at the end of the age and resurrections prior to that point; in the former case, the original bodies are returned to life and transformed into something new, but in the latter case the original bodies are only returned to life. Lazarus is an example of the latter; though resurrected after being dead for 4 days, he subsequently died of something else.

[JimL]

Elijah didn't ascend to heaven, but was taken up (same with Enoch).

What's the difference?

The three apostles with Jesus saw Moses at the transfiguration along with Elijah, but there's a qualitative difference between the resurrection of Jesus/the general resurrection at the end of the age and resurrections prior to that point; in the former case, the original bodies are returned to life and transformed into something new, but in the latter case the original bodies are only returned to life. Lazarus is an example of the latter; though resurrected after being dead for 4 days, he subsequently died of something else.

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make between the bolded above. And are you getting this explanation from the bible itself?

[Christianbookworm]

What's the difference?

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make between the bolded above. And are you getting this explanation from the bible itself?

It's the difference between a miraculous version of what happens in ERs around the country when someone is brought back from clinical death(God can reverse brain death also) and being raised to never die again. The Resurrection(not just resuscitation) involves a change that somehow makes it so it is impossible to die again/ Don't ask what would happen if you fired a bullet at a Resurrected person's body.

[Cerebrum123]

That's just dumb.

Consider the source.

[One Bad Pig]

What's the difference?

The agent doing the moving.

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make between the bolded above. And are you getting this explanation from the bible itself?

Yes. See 1 Cor. 15:35-54. After his resurrection, Jesus could apparently enter a room even if the doors were shut (John 20:19, 26).

There is an extra-biblical legend that Lazarus is still wandering about, but AFAIK it is rather late (and in any case the legend does not include a transformed body).

[Christianbookworm]

The agent doing the moving.

Yes. See 1 Cor. 15:35-54. After his resurrection, Jesus could apparently enter a room even if the doors were shut (John 20:19, 26).

There is an extra-biblical legend that Lazarus is still wandering about, but AFAIK it is rather late (and in any case the legend does not include a transformed body).

I thought Jesus could do that because He is Jesus of Nazareth!

[Adrift]

I thought Jesus could do that because He is Jesus of Nazareth!

Nope. Well, yes, but no. It has to do with his glorified body. He's the example that we will follow in our glorified bodies.

[JimL]

The agent doing the moving

.
I see, so once a physical body is resurrected they can fly around of their own volition and so they fly off to heaven, but unless you have died you'd need the power of god to get you there?

Yes. See 1 Cor. 15:35-54. After his resurrection, Jesus could apparently enter a room even if the doors were shut (John 20:19, 26).

There is an extra-biblical legend that Lazarus is still wandering about, but AFAIK it is rather late (and in any case the legend does not include a transformed body).

That reads like a spiritual resurrection to me, not a physical one. "Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of heaven."

[Christianbookworm]

.
I see, so once a physical body is resurrected they can fly around of their own volition and so they fly off to heaven, but unless you have died you'd need the power of god to get you there?

That reads like a spiritual resurrection to me, not a physical one. "Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of heaven."

But flesh and bones can! "Flesh and blood" is referring to our current fragile mortality. We need some upgrades for immortality. Our current bodies are just too delicate.

[One Bad Pig]

I see, so once a physical body is resurrected they can fly around of their own volition and so they fly off to heaven, but unless you have died you'd need the power of god to get you there?

Not necessarily. As God, Jesus could take his own body there.

That reads like a spiritual resurrection to me, not a physical one.

The difference is not sarx/pneumatike, but psychike/pheumatike. Jesus' resurrection body was at least in some sense physical, since he could be touched and he ate food.

"Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of heaven."

Actually, "the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:50). "Flesh and blood" is an idiomatic expression which should not be taken literally (compare Mat. 16:17).

[JimL]

Not necessarily. As God, Jesus could take his own body there.

Well, of course, but I'm basically talking about us non gods. Once we are resurected we can just fly off to heaven of our own volition whenever we decide to?

The difference is not sarx/pneumatike, but psychike/pheumatike. Jesus' resurrection body was at least in some sense physical, since he could be touched and he ate food.

Don't know what that means. I would think that one is either physical or non physical, not somewhat physical.

Actually, "the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:50). "Flesh and blood" is an idiomatic expression which should not be taken literally (compare Mat. 16:17).

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Where do you get the idea that Paul didn't mean for it to be taken literally?

[Adrift]

The agent doing the moving.

Source: The Gospel of John, 1-3 John by Philip Comfort, Wendell C. Hawley, Grant Osborne

Jesus' first statement ("No one has ever gone to heaven") is puzzling in light of Enoch, who was translated to heaven (Gen 5:24), and Elijah, who went up to heaven in a fiery chariot in a whirlwind (2 Kgs 2:11). Also, Jewish tradition said that Moses was taken up to heaven at his death (so Brown, Whitacre). Jesus, in a sense, was denying all of this. The NLT's rendering, "gone to heaven and returned," provides part of the answer. Jesus was saying that only he had access to heaven and had brought heaven to earth (cf. 1:51). Carson says, "Jesus insists that no one has ascended to heaven in such a way as to return to talk about heavenly things" (1991:200-201).

© Copyright Original Source

Source: John by Andreas J. K�stenberger

Jesus here answers Nicodemus's question in 3:9: "these things" (i.e., spiritual rebirth) can happen only as a result of Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension (Moloney 1998:95). Explaining how he has knowledge of "heavenly things" (Ridderbos 1997: 135; Carson 1991: 199; Moloney 1998: 95), Jesus maintains that no one has ever gone into heaven except for the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man (see commentary at 1:51; additional note to 3:13). The statement, as Carson (1991: 200) explains, is probably elliptical: "No-one [else] has ascended into heaven and remained there [so as to be able to speak authoritatively about heavenly things] but only the one who has come down from heaven [is equipped to do so]." This characterization is reminiscent of the prologue's portrayal of Jesus as the incarnate Word and the one-of-a-kind Son from the Father, who has given a full account of him (1:14, 18). The present passage combines elements of Num. 21:9 (the serpent in the wilderness), Isa. 52:13 ("lifted up"), and Dan 7:13-14 ("Son of Man") (Borgen 1977: 252-53).

The OT identifies heaven as the place where God dwells. John's Gospel refers several times to a descent from heaven, be it of the Spirit (1:32-33), angels (1:51), the Son of Man (3:13), or the divine bread (6:33, 38, 41, 42, 50, 51, 58). However, this is one of only three instances where it speaks of an ascent into heaven (angels [1:51]; the Son of Man [3:13]; the risen Lord [20:17]). Jesus here contrasts himself, the "Son of Man" (cf. Dan. 7:13), with other human figures who allegedly entered heaven, such as Enoch (Gen. 5:24; cf. Heb. 11:15), Elijah (2 Kings 2:1-12; cf. 2 Chron. 21:12-15), Moses (Exod. 24:9-11; 34:29-30), Isaiah (Isa. 6:1-3), or Ezekiel (Ezek. 1; 10). A whole cottage industry of Second Temple literature revolved around such figures and their heavenly exploits (e.g., 1 Enoch; see Tabor, ABD 3:91-94; Borgen 1977). Although believers can expect to join Christ in heaven one day (cf. John 14:1-3; 17:24), only Jesus both descended from heaven and ascended back up to heaven (cf. Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; though note the similar ascent-descent pattern of angels in John 1:51).

© Copyright Original Source

He then added, "Very truly I tell you, you will see 'heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on' the Son of Man."

Source: John by Andreas J. K�stenberger

To see "heaven open" is to receive a vision of otherworldy realities (Acts 10:11; Rev. 4:1; 19:11). An "open heaven" was every Jewish apocalyptic's dream. This spawned an entire genre of literature in the Second Temple period in which enigmatic figures such as Enoch (who, according to Gen. 5:24, was translated to heaven without dying) are depicted as traversing heaven and reporting what they see (1 Enoch is quoted in Jude 14-15). But, as Jesus maintains in John 3:13, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who comes from heaven--the Son of Man." This Son of Man, in turn, is none other than the mysterious figure of Dan. 7:13, "one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven." What Jesus claims is that he is that Son of Man prophesied in Daniel, the one who has seen God and given a full account of him (cf. John 1:18), the one who was "lifted up" at the cross (3:14; cf. 8:28; 12:32), and the one who will return in all his glory (Matt. 26:64).

© Copyright Original Source

[Cow Poke]

Well, of course, but I'm basically talking about us non gods. Once we are resurected we can just fly off to heaven of our own volition whenever we decide to?

Those of us who know Jesus as Savior can "fly to Heaven".... no man comes to the Father except through Christ.