Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

[Tassman]

The Apostle Paul wrote the Roman Christians telling them, "There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God." So how have you sought to find God?

[37818]

Well according to the Apostle Paul no one seeks God. So the question then becomes, how did you seek God before you decided there was none?

[Tassman]

Well according to the Apostle Paul no one seeks God. So the question then becomes, how did you seek God before you decided there was none?

[37818]

God`s omniscience is infinite. God being infinitely omnipresent. He cannot not know. God created man to be self-willed. Free-will is a popular interpretation of our self-will. God making us self willed makes us responsible for our choices regardless. We make choices.

[Mountain Man]

You haven't actually read the thread, have you? The point is that -given God's existence and molinism- if God had already made the circumstances and evidence available to me, I would be a theist by now. But since I'm an atheist, God has only done that deliberately to the extent that He knew I would choose atheism.

I have read the thread. The problem here is that you don't understand the concepts involved. Your future is not set in stone. You could, this very second, repent of your sins and become a Christian, or you can continue to stubbornly refuse God's grace. The choice is entirely yours. Both of these potential futures are consistent with God's omniscience because the universe in which they happen is only actualized when you make the choice. God knows the infinite possibilities that branch out from every point in your life, but only you can choose which one of those possibilities becomes actual.

[Mountain Man]

It has. God's apparent "change of mind" was an example of what tribal gods do. Namely, providing a divine imprimatur for Moses (in this instance) to rationalise his raping and pillaging and land stealing. It's a tribal thing.

It would be so much easier (and less embarrassing for you) if you just admitted you didn't know what you were talking about.

The passage in question is about God punishing the Israelites for sins against him. It has nothing to do with the conquest of the Promised Land.

[crepuscule]

I have read the thread. The problem here is that you don't understand the concepts involved. Your future is not set in stone. You could, this very second, repent of your sins and become a Christian, or you can continue to stubbornly refuse God's grace. The choice is entirely yours. Both of these potential futures are consistent with God's omniscience because the universe in which they happen is only actualized when you make the choice. God knows the infinite possibilities that branch out from every point in your life, but only you can choose which one of those possibilities becomes actual.

Yet under Molinism -the issue at hand- God can choose to bring circumstances about under which He knows I will freely choose theism, or
circumstances about under which He knows I will freely choose atheism. So far He has done the latter, and not the former.

[Mountain Man]

Yet under Molinism -the issue at hand- God can choose to bring circumstances about under which He knows I will freely choose theism, or
circumstances about under which He knows I will freely choose atheism. So far He has done the latter, and not the former.

I'm not talking about Molinism, I'm talking about Open Theism.

[crepuscule]

I'm not talking about Molinism, I'm talking about Open Theism.

Well, Sparkles and I were talking about Molinism, so that only goes to show you have not been reading the thread.

[Tassman]

The passage in question is about God punishing the Israelites for sins against him. It has nothing to do with the conquest of the Promised Land.

I guess you missed the point that for a tribal god, his role was to provide the divine imprimatur for whatever it is the tribal leader wanted to do.

[37818]

Open theism denies God's full omniscience (1 John 3:20). An fails to understand the role of the Son of God (Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7).

[Tassman]

Open theism denies God's full omniscience (1 John 3:20). An fails to understand the role of the Son of God (Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7).

Full omniscience is one of the traditional attributes of God:

"8. OMNISCIENT: God is perfect in that He knows all things, including events before they happen.

Perfect in knowledge, Job 37:16
Knows the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chr. 28:9, 17; Psa. 139:1-4; Jer. 17:10a)
Knows all events to come (Isa. 41:22-23; 42:9; 44:7)"

http://www.equip.org/article/the-att...ibutes-of-god/

Hence, God supposedly knew even before he created you what you would decide at any given point in time. So how is this 'free-will' exactly?

[37818]

Full omniscience is one of the traditional attributes of God:

"8. OMNISCIENT: God is perfect in that He knows all things, including events before they happen.

Perfect in knowledge, Job 37:16
Knows the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chr. 28:9, 17; Psa. 139:1-4; Jer. 17:10a)
Knows all events to come (Isa. 41:22-23; 42:9; 44:7)"

http://www.equip.org/article/the-att...ibutes-of-god/

Hence, God supposedly knew even before he created you what you would decide at any given point in time. So how is this 'free-will' exactly?

From a finite view of God that is not possible. But God is truly infinite. And all that was created was created by way of His agent (John 1:1-3; Ephesians 3:9). His agent always shared the infinite attributes and was also finite in an immeasurable way (John 1:2).

[Mountain Man]

Open theism denies God's full omniscience (1 John 3:20). An fails to understand the role of the Son of God (Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7).

It depends on what you mean by "full omniscience". Omniscience simply means knowing everything that it is logically possible to know. For instance, God in his "full omniscience" can't know what a square circle looks like, or what it's like to possess tea and no tea at the same time and in the same sense (bonus points if you get that obscure reference). Similarly, it is logically impossible for God to know what a freewill agent will choose prior to his choosing it.

[Mountain Man]

I guess you missed the point that for a tribal god, his role was to provide the divine imprimatur for whatever it is the tribal leader wanted to do.

Yeah, except that Moses initially pleaded with God to not punish the Israelites.