Originally posted by element771
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI don't think that there is a rational, immaterial "spirit" to be dead. So I guess the answer to the question would be yet.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI don't think that there is a rational, immaterial "spirit" to be dead. So I guess the answer to the question would be yet.
It's an interesting dilemma.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostBut it the same thing...only in slow motion.
Our bodies are exact replicas of us from earlier time points in our lives, yet we are the same person. So in the same way...if God replaces all of the atoms in my body instantaneously, then I will continue to be the same person.
How fast or slow the process happens doesn't really matter.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYou're still not getting the argument. The argument isn't that replacing all of the constituents of your body would make you a different person, the argument is that death implies the complete and irreversible destruction of the person if physicalism is true. If you die you don't exist anymore for God to resurrect you. You're gone forever, non-existent. There's nothing there for God to resurrect anymore.
God restores the atoms in our body after a period of time of being dead, but we are the same person.
it is the same thing. The only difference is the timescale or temporal nature. Either way, replacement of atoms or physical resurrection...same person.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYou're still not getting the argument. The argument isn't that replacing all of the constituents of your body would make you a different person, the argument is that death implies the complete and irreversible destruction of the person if physicalism is true. If you die you don't exist anymore for God to resurrect you. You're gone forever, non-existent. There's nothing there for God to resurrect anymore.
Of course, there is the problem that some of my constituent elements were probably part of other people at some time, so we'll be fighting over specific pieces!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostAtoms are replaced over a period of time, but we are the same person.
God restores the atoms in our body after a period of time of being dead, but we are the same person.
it is the same thing. The only difference is the timescale or temporal nature. Either way, replacement of atoms or physical resurrection...same person.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUmm...First Law of Thermodynamics begs to differ. All of the matter and energy that makes up my body will continue to exist after I pass and this body decays (or is burned) away. Presumably, god would have the power to reconstruct it from its constituent elements? And if god creates "me" to begin with, what exactly is stopping him from recreating me?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt's not the same thing at all. Even if your cells are constantly being broken down and replaced you're still alive and conscious throughout the whole process. There's always something there to keep the person existing. When you die and decompose there's nothing left that constitutes you as a person any more, it's just dead, lifeless, unconscious matter. God could create an exact replica of the body/person, but it would still not be the same person, it would simply be an identical clone walking around with the original's memories. The original would still not have been brought back to life. In fact, the original wouldn't even be dead, he would simply not even exist. If you're correct then God could create an exact replica of a person, down to the minutest detail, while that person is still alive and you'd have to maintain that the two are the exact same person.
If physicalism is true, the memories, brain composition, and totality of past /present brain states are all I am right now anyway. If this is reassembled in the resurrection, I will still be me...it will just be a new body.
I also think that if God could bring me back to life, he could arrange the atoms in such away that I would be the same person irrespective any issues that we perceive. Although I don't really see any of these issues being a problem.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostGod would have the power to reconstruct an identical body, the argument is that even if God reconstructed the body and gave it new life it wouldn't be the same person. It would be a completely new person with his/her own subjective first person experiences, completely separate from the original person. The original person ceased to exist with the death and destruction/decomposing of the original body, and there's no way to bring that person back, even for an omnipotent God.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAn interesting POV, for sure. So in the hypothetical age of the matter transporter, if a person were to go through it, we would be continuously murdering the traveler and cloning their essence, thereby creating a duplicate, but different person. Correct?
Chrawnus,
What if I popped out of existence and popped back into existence some time later? Am I not the same person?
Do you consider any temporal interruption in consciousness to be a problem for continuous existence?Last edited by element771; 03-19-2018, 10:34 AM.
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI don't see the problem to be honest. If I suddenly popped out of existence only to pop back into existence 10 minutes later, I wouldn't consider myself to be a different person not would anyone else.
Originally posted by element771 View PostIf physicalism is true, the memories, brain composition, and totality of past /present brain states are all I am right now anyway. If this is reassembled in the resurrection, I will still be me...it will just be a new body.
Originally posted by element771 View PostI also think that if God could bring me back to life, he could arrange the atoms in such away that I would be the same person irrespective any issues that we perceive. Although I don't really see any of these issues being a problem.
And in any case, I don't really see why you even believe in physicalism. There's not even any good philosophical, scientific, or biblical reasons to believe that physicalism is true.
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Originally posted by element771 View PostChrawnus,
What if I popped out of existence and popped back into existence some time later? Am I not the same person?
Originally posted by element771 View PostDo you consider any temporal interruption in consciousness to be a problem for continuous existence?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAn interesting POV, for sure. So in the hypothetical age of the matter transporter, if a person were to go through it, we would be continuously murdering the traveler and cloning their essence, thereby creating a duplicate, but different person. Correct?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt wouldn't matter in which way God would "arrange the atoms", they still wouldn't constitute you. You ceased to exist when you died.
And in any case, I don't really see why you even believe in physicalism. There's not even any good philosophical, scientific, or biblical reasons to believe that physicalism is true.
There is nothing special about the atoms that compose me at the moment. So for God to reassemble atoms to recapitulate my brain states, I don't see a problem.
What is the scientific evidence for the soul?
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