Originally posted by Chrawnus
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI just don't agree.
There is nothing special about the atoms that compose me at the moment. So for God to reassemble atoms to recapitulate my brain states, I don't see a problem.
Originally posted by element771 View PostWhat is the scientific evidence for the soul?
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Originally posted by element771 View PostSo if physicalism is true, I am a different person after a night of sleep or after being knocked unconscious?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIf physicalism is true I don't even believe we would be persons in the first place. But if, hypothetically, physicalism was true, and persons could exist as states of the brain I don't see why sleeping or being knocked unconscious would constitute a problem, given that there would still be brain activity, no matter how low, to keep that "person" in existence. Death would involve complete cessation of brain activity, which would be a completely different, and much more severe problem.
If we were able to transport matter, and an accident occurred in which I was exactly duplicated, at that very instant of duplication, there would be two indistinguishable instances of "me." From that moment on, their experiences would differ, so they would continue as two separate persons. Which one is the continuation of "me" and which one the duplicate? There is no answer to that question. Each will experience itself as the continuation of "me," but would likewise see itself as distinct from the other "me."
There is some precedence here. In utero, an egg can split to become two distinct human beings. Assuming fraternal twins, it was fertilized as one being, but then spontaneously divided to become two. Your argument has some very odd consequences for this reality.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAfter reading through all of these posts, you appear to be taking a position that is not defensible because of your antipathy for "physicalism" (materialism?).
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou also appear to be arguing from silence/ignorance. First, we do not know the forces behind the relationship between the material and immaterial - we just know it exists. We also don't know what gravity is - but we know it exists. And this idea that a being that is exactly my duplicate at a separate moment in time (e.g., time travel) or place in space (e.g., matter transporation) is not me is a very odd one, and simply seems to be taken to support the position you want to hold (that we need a soul to give us continuity - I think).
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIf we were able to transport matter, and an accident occurred in which I was exactly duplicated, at that very instant of duplication, there would be two indistinguishable instances of "me." From that moment on, their experiences would differ, so they would continue as two separate persons. Which one is the continuation of "me" and which one the duplicate? There is no answer to that question. Each will experience itself as the continuation of "me," but would likewise see itself as distinct from the other "me."
There is some precedence here. In utero, an egg can split to become two distinct human beings. Assuming fraternal twins, it was fertilized as one being, but then spontaneously divided to become two. Your argument has some very odd consequences for this reality.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI don't believe I have an antipathy towards physicalism. I just don't find any good reasons to believe in it.
Well, it's the other way around. I don't hold to these ideas/beliefs because I want to believe in a soul, they are some of the reasons I believe that we have a soul.
No, not really. These wonky consequences would only exist in a physicalist reality. For the dualist they're not a problem at all.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOK. So, out of curiosity, how does the dualist deal with the transporter accident proposed above as a thought experiment?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThe accident you propose wouldn't be possible, or to be more specific, wouldn't result in the outcome you describe under dualism. There would be two identical bodies, but only one of them would be alive and conscious, housing the soul. The other body would just be a lifeless corpse. Unless of course, a new soul was somehow created along with the duplication of the body.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo your position is that the soul "animates" the body in some fashion? And what evidence do you offer for this immaterial control over the material?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIf you're asking for scientific evidence I don't have any. I believe in the existence of the soul and it's control over the body because I believe that our experiences (and I'm not even sure we would even have "experiences" in the first place) would be radically different under physicalism/non-dualism than what they are now.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostAre you serious?!?
Comets don't appear to be stopped in the night sky?!?!
Comets don't appear in different areas of the night sky as they progress through their orbits?!?!
Yeah, don't bother reading the article....you wouldn't understand it.
It makes no sense to you because you don't understand the underlying concepts.
Not to mention, you have not read any to the data....
Have you ever heard of the Dunning Kruger effect?
Seems like it may speak toward your cognitive abilities.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI know that comets don't appear that way, but apparently Matthew didn't. Try reading the biblical passage, "the star preceded them, until it came and stopped over the place where the child was."
If you had read the piece you would know that that the star preceded them, changing its relative position in the night's sky nightly until it appeared to stop.
Originally posted by JimL View PostActually I read about that years ago, and the reason it makes no sense is because I actually understand the underlying concepts and unlike you I understood that they don't match Matthews story.
Originally posted by JimL View PostYes I have, and have found that it is usually the accuser of others who actually suffer from it.
Seems appropriate.
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Originally posted by element771 View PostHow fast do you think the Magi were traveling? You do realize that they didn't have airplanes back then right?
If you had read the piece you would know that that the star preceded them, changing its relative position in the night's sky nightly until it appeared to stop.
So we can hypothesize that the nightly change in the position of the comment could trace a path that more or less "pointed" to Bethlehem. But what phenomenon do you think would result in the impression of it "stopping?"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo we know a comet won't actually "stop." And we know that, although a comet will change its relative position in the night sky as a function of its path, MOST of that change is a function of the rotation (and to some degree the orbit) of the earth. The change that is a function of the comet's path (and the earth's orbit) is best tracked by comparing position night-to-night at the same time of the night.
So we can hypothesize that the nightly change in the position of the comment could trace a path that more or less "pointed" to Bethlehem. But what phenomenon do you think would result in the impression of it "stopping?"
On a side, I am not saying that they are 100% correct or that this is a done deal. I just said that there was an interesting paper that gave a cool scientific explanation of what the star of Bethlehem could have been.
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Originally posted by element771 View PostIt has been a while since I read the paper or listened to the lecture. If I remember correctly, it has to do with the angle of orbit relative to the earth.
On a side, I am not saying that they are 100% correct or that this is a done deal. I just said that there was an interesting paper that gave a cool scientific explanation of what the star of Bethlehem could have been.
And I do find myself fascinated by the attempts to apply scientific analysis to the varous miracle stories of the bible. The association of the Black Sea deluge (circa 5600) with the Noah/flood story, for example.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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