Originally posted by seer
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Morality or Obedience?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhy not? If I don't believe any of it, then I obviously believe Paul was a fraud and a liar.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSince we both believe that God created this universe, it is obvious that matter and energy did not organize themselves in this fashion.
We have been over this Shuny, it completely depends on how compatibilism defines free will.
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut you can't show that Jim, you are just assuming.
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight element, depart to BE WITH CHRIST. .
After we die, we will be with Christ.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut you are assuming that you have control, you could be doing the exactly same thing as the result of deterministic antecedent conditions.
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat do you do with the human spirit/soul?
I'm not sure where freedom comes in here...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAh, there are generic "bests" concerning moral behavior in society. It is "best" that murder is immoral, it is "best" that theft is immoral, it is "best" that lying is immoral etc etc etc. and these are "bests" because they serve our interests as a people living in community, they serve to improve the conditions under which we live.
Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, again, it isn't subjective. That murder is a behavior that is contrary to the best interests of human society is an objective fact. It's not objective in the sense that as a law, it exists somewhere out there in Plato's heaven, but it's objective in the sense of its utility. Murder as an "ought not to do" is a rule of behavior that best serves the interests of human society, and so the individuals therein. It does work.
Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, there are behaviors that are objectively best behaviors, i.e. moral behaviors, in that obeying them, not murdering, not stealing, not lying, etc etc., they serve the best interests of people living in community together, and there are objectively worse behaviors, i.e. immoral behaviors, in that acting upon them they are objectively injurious to the best interests of people living together in community.
You CAN say that most people value life, so moral codes protecting life are common. You can say that most people value liberty, so moral codes protecting liberty are common. But there are exceptions to pretty much all of these. There are cultures that put their elderly out to be killed. There are cultures that kill children who are born unable to support the tribe. For them, this is moral because the survival of the tribe takes precedence over the survival of the individual.
You're trying to create absolutes/universals/objectives where they simply do not exist. I suspect you are clinging to religiously-driven inclinations. Our species has been mostly religious for a long, long time. It will take time for that deep indoctrination to release its hold.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostSheesh Element, Philippians 1:
But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body...
I still don't see how complexity endows us with free will. Complexity can be just as deterministic as anything else.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostLiars don't become martyrs for their lies.
So did the martyrs die for the truth - or merely for something they believed to be true?
My experience suggests the latter. But then again...who knowsThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI can't show many things. i can't show that jesus didn't walk on water, I can't show that he didn't raise the dead, that he didn't cast out demons into a heard of swine, that long dead saints didn't climb out of their tombs fully intact, I can't show that an invisible immaterial god doesn't exist, and I can't show any mere claim to be false, but I can ridicule them when I believe them to be ridiculous.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by element771 View Postdepart = die
After we die, we will be with Christ.
Why should I not trust my own conscious experience?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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