Morality or Obedience?

[seer]

There is no objective verifiable evidence for Intelligent Design, beyond the obvious result of human intellect, creativity and ingenuity.

Since we both believe that God created this universe, it is obvious that matter and energy did not organize themselves in this fashion.

Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name, the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes, and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. . It is a dispensation of Providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise. Were anyone to affirm that it is the Will of God as manifested in the world of being, no one should question this assertion. It is endowed with a power whose reality men of learning fail to grasp. Indeed a man of insight can perceive naught therein save the effulgent splendour of Our Name, the Creator. Say: This is an existence which knoweth no decay, and Nature itself is lost in bewilderment before its revelations, its compelling evidences and its effulgent glory which have encompassed the universe.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/steph...b_4721219.html

Humans likely only have a degree of free will from the compatibilist view. Machines of course, do not at present. Future computers based on the brain neural network may. There are currently primitive neural network hardware developed.

We have been over this Shuny, it completely depends on how compatibilism defines free will.

[element771]

What do you do with the human spirit/soul?

I don't think there is one.

God breathed into the dirt the breath of life. The Hebrew word is the same for us and the animals if I remember correctly. In other words, there is nothing unique about our bottom level physical makeup that distinguishes us from the animals. It is the higher order reasoning, creative spirit, and self contemplation that is the image of God that we emulate.

I'm not sure where freedom comes in here...

Essentially the mind emerges as a result of the complexity of the nerve cells and gains causal powers over the neurons that make up the brain...to put it crudely.

[element771]

Since we both believe that God created this universe, it is obvious that matter and energy did not organize themselves in this fashion.

I don't agree.

I think that God imbued into matter the proclivity to self-assemble and organize.

[seer]

I don't think there is one.

God breathed into the dirt the breath of life. The Hebrew word is the same for us and the animals if I remember correctly. In other words, there is nothing unique about our bottom level physical makeup that distinguishes us from the animals. It is the higher order reasoning, creative spirit, and self contemplation that is the image of God that we emulate.

The spirit is much better defined in the New Testament - to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Essentially the mind emerges as a result of the complexity of the nerve cells and gains causal powers over the neurons that make up the brain...to put it crudely.

I have no idea what "complexity" means. Is this something separate from the biological brain?

[element771]

The spirit is much better defined in the New Testament - to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Paul is comparing our current body (which is corruptible) to our resurrection body (which is not corruptible).

I have no idea what "complexity" means. Is this something separate from the biological brain?

No. The nerve cells in our brain are simple when taken individually (fire or don't fire) but when they are "networked", things get a lot more complex. And through this complex network, our consciousness emerges and can actually have causal powers over the nerve cells.

[seer]

Paul is comparing our current body (which is corruptible) to our resurrection body (which is not corruptible).

I don't see it that way. There are not two different bodies here, our present body will be reconstituted. If you are correct we could never be absent from this body.

No. The nerve cells in our brain are simple when taken individually (fire or don't fire) but when they are "networked", things get a lot more complex. And through this complex network, our consciousness emerges and can actually have causal powers over the nerve cells.

But consciousness is cause by nerve cells - so nerve cells have power over nerve cells? Or to ask in another way - is consciousness something physical?

[element771]

I don't see it that way. There are not two different bodies here, our present body will be reconstituted. If you are correct we could never be absent from this body.

While there are not two separate bodies...there are two different bodies in the sense that one is an earthly body and one is a heavenly body. The difference between the two is one is corruptible and one is not.

Us being absent from the body is us being absent from the earthly body which is corruptible and resides in a place that is not with God (current day Earth). When God restores creation and our bodies, these were be our new bodies (2.0) which are not corruptible. It will be great because in these bodies, we will be with the lord given that is when he remakes heaven and earth.

But consciousness is cause by nerve cells - so nerve cells have power over nerve cells? Or to ask in another way - is consciousness something physical?

Yes essentially. That is what emergence is. A new property (consciousness) emerges that is not found in the individual components (nerve cells).

[JimL]

No - it's not. That's where we disagree. You are trying to arrive at a generic "best" for all of a society. If we don't value these things equally - we will disagree on what is "best" for society. You cannot arrive at a subjective "best" when there is not agreement on how "best" is measured.

Ah, there are generic "bests" concerning moral behavior in society. It is "best" that murder is immoral, it is "best" that theft is immoral, it is "best" that lying is immoral etc etc etc. and these are "bests" because they serve our interests as a people living in community, they serve to improve the conditions under which we live.

Except your basis for this "best" is a subjective basis. You can't get to objective by accumulating subjective. It just doesn't work.

No, again, it isn't subjective. That murder is a behavior that is contrary to the best interests of human society is an objective fact. It's not objective in the sense that as a law, it exists somewhere out there in Plato's heaven, but it's objective in the sense of its utility. Murder as an "ought not to do" is a rule of behavior that best serves the interests of human society, and so the individuals therein. It does work.

Forget morality. Think "cars." What you are trying to do is say that there is an objectively "best" car that is independent of what people think/feel. Except "best" has to be quantified. Is it the Fastest? Largest? Least maintenance? Best Safety? You're trying to say it is possible to arrive as an objective "best" that is independent of what anyone thinks, except without a universally agreed upon metric, that's not even possible.

The same applies for morality.

No, there are behaviors that are objectively best behaviors, i.e. moral behaviors, in that obeying them, not murdering, not stealing, not lying, etc etc., they serve the best interests of people living in community together, and there are objectively worse behaviors, i.e. immoral behaviors, in that acting upon them they are objectively injurious to the best interests of people living together in community.

[seer]

While there are not two separate bodies...there are two different bodies in the sense that one is an earthly body and one is a heavenly body. The difference between the two is one is corruptible and one is not.

Us being absent from the body is us being absent from the earthly body which is corruptible and resides in a place that is not with God (current day Earth). When God restores creation and our bodies, these were be our new bodies (2.0) which are not corruptible. It will be great because in these bodies, we will be with the lord given that is when he remakes heaven and earth.

Sheesh Element, Philippians 1:

But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body...

Yes essentially. That is what emergence is. A new property (consciousness) emerges that is not found in the individual components (nerve cells).

I still don't see how complexity endows us with free will. Complexity can be just as deterministic as anything else.

[element771]

Sheesh Element, Philippians 1:

But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body...

He is simply asking what is better...to live or to die? Live in the flesh / body is simply to not die. He is contemplating (most likely in prison) whether he would rather die (which your translation is depart) to be with Christ or to go on living so he may serve more.

I am not the only Christian physicalist out there Seer. lol.

I think the more relevant passages are in the OT when God is creating humans and the language used in the creation.

I still don't see how complexity endows us with free will. Complexity can be just as deterministic as anything else.

Because this emergence can allow us to have control over the neurons and thus have agency. I choose to stimulate the neurons in my brain that make me type this post. How else would it be?

[JimL]

Sheesh Element, Philippians 1:

But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body...

Paul was such an altruistic soul! He did it all for them, even though he could have departed to be with Christ!

I still don't see how complexity endows us with free will. Complexity can be just as deterministic as anything else.

True. But it's still an open question in my opinion.

[seer]

He is simply asking what is better...to live or to die? Live in the flesh / body is simply to not die. He is contemplating (most likely in prison) whether he would rather die (which your translation is depart) to be with Christ or to go on living so he may serve more.

Right element, depart to BE WITH CHRIST.

I am not the only Christian physicalist out there Seer. lol.

I know, I really like Peter van Inwagen's work, and he is a materialist in this sense too.

Because this emergence can allow us to have control over the neurons and thus have agency. I choose to stimulate the neurons in my brain that make me type this post. How else would it be?

But you are assuming that you have control, you could be doing the exactly same thing as the result of deterministic antecedent conditions.

[seer]

Paul was such an altruistic soul! He did it all for them, even though he could have departed to be with Christ!

You know Jim, sometimes you are really just dark and cynical...

[JimL]

You know Jim, sometimes you are really just dark and cynical...

I'm not a believer seer, I think it's nonsense, and I find it sad that so many people can be taken in by such, in my opinion, ridiculous stories. So, of course I'm cynical.

[seer]

I'm not a believer seer, I think it's nonsense, and I find it sad that so many people can be taken in by such, in my opinion, ridiculous stories. So, of course I'm cynical.

No, it was about impugning the motives of Paul. There was no call for that.