What Was Jesus Teaching His Disciples?

[rogue06]

I was hoping that the sentence would provide internal cues, but that isn't the case. On its own merits, "men from James" doesn't provide any indication of whether the people concerned were acting as representatives of James or were a splinter group. However, there are external cues where Paul has shown that there was no dispute with James. That being the case, I will assume that the story about James disputing with Paul about the law (of Moses) arises with people who object to James' explicit declarations that expose their misinterpretations of Paul's teachings.

Could chronology play a factor? Could James have received reports that caused concern regarding Paul, but after Paul's visit to Jerusalem he was reassured and realized they were in accord?

[whag]

Could chronology play a factor? Could James have received reports that caused concern regarding Paul, but after Paul's visit to Jerusalem he was reassured and realized they were in accord?

In that case, there’d be no need for Paul to flame James by associating Jesus’ brother with the splinter group. There’d also be no need for Paul to shame Peter even further by bragging about confronting him in public.

[tabibito]

In that case, there’d be no need for Paul to flame James by associating Jesus’ brother with the splinter group. There’d also be no need for Paul to shame Peter even further by bragging about confronting him in public.

Unless the members of the group were trying to portray Paul as an inferior apostle and calling on supposed superior apostles as support for their own claim to priority. It is readily apparent from other comments that the procedure was adopted on a fairly regular basis - Paul's reference to super apostles and his own status being no lesser than theirs being an example (2Corinthians 11:5; 12:11). Pointing out the failure by Peter and the failure by James' (possible) group follows hard on the statement that James, Peter, and John had affirmed his status and offered him "the right hand of fellowship" (Galatians 2:8-9). According to Luke, Paul gave warning in Miletus to the leaders of the church of Ephesus that they could expect similar splinter groups and problems to arise even from among themselves, "Even from among your own group men will arise, teaching perversions of the truth to draw the disciples away after them." (Acts 20:30).

[tabibito]

Could chronology play a factor? Could James have received reports that caused concern regarding Paul, but after Paul's visit to Jerusalem he was reassured and realized they were in accord?

The sequence doesn't allow for that. Here, Paul seems to have been subjected to the customary challenges to his status as an apostle, this time by people who had been members of James' coterie, but had trotted off on their own. Being "from James," they were claiming that their teachings had the stamp of a supposedly superior apostle's approval, and using that claim as an excuse to undermine Paul's teachings. For his part, Paul pointed out that James had not expressed any dissatisfaction with Paul's teachings, and had offered fellowship - a counter to any claims that his teachings might not be in accord with those of James. Paul also did not expect that groups he had founded would be free of similar trouble-makers.

[Cow Poke]

...If you mean Jesus’ other siblings, I would think that would be something worth mentioning. I’d take that report over insignificant details like Judas’ intestines spilling out.

So, an argument from silence.

[rogue06]

Strange that verified miracles didn’t have the same effect on his belief system. I always wondered why his other siblings didn’t undergo profound changes at seeing their brother come back to life.

We don't know what roles they played if any and could well have been rather minor players compared to their brother James, and yet one of Jesus' brothers, Jude, is regarded as the author of an epistle, so at the very least that is a strong indication that the family was active. Further, Eusebius relates an account of relatives of Jesus being hauled before Domitian near the end of the 1st century. How much truth there is for this account is debatable but it again shows that Christians realized that Jesus' relatives were active in the Church (don't forget that some of his disciples were also cousins).

[whag]

We don't know what roles they played if any and could well have been rather minor players compared to their brother James, and yet one of Jesus' brothers, Jude, is regarded as the author of an epistle, so at the very least that is a strong indication that the family was active. Further, Eusebius relates an account of relatives of Jesus being hauled before Domitian near the end of the 1st century. How much truth there is for this account is debatable but it again shows that Christians realized that Jesus' relatives were active in the Church (don't forget that some of his disciples were also cousins).

Thanks for acknowledging those events were debatable. Since this reply relates to Jude, I was going to reference my Enoch thread from months ago but then thought the best of it for two reasons:

• Not my best opening salvo.
• It devolved into you playing footsie with HA. (Probably because of my OP)

Back on topic, Enoch 1 is a traditional book founded in tradition. It was thought of traditionally, like the Torah and Revelation today. The Genesis reference to this figure figures traditionally into Jude’s epistle.


Tradition, according religious giant Augustine, is sometimes very hugely underrated. Thankfully, Jude’s brief and concise:

1

Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for^[a] Jesus Christ:

² Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People


³ Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. ⁴ For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about^[b]long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

⁵ Though you already know all this, I want to remind youthat the Lord^[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.⁶ And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. ⁷ In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

⁸ In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. ⁹ But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”^[d]10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

¹¹ Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

¹² These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain,blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. ¹³ They are wild waves of the sea,foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

¹⁴ Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones ¹⁵ to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”^[e]16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
A Call to Persevere


¹⁷ But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. ¹⁸ They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” ¹⁹ These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

²⁰ But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,²¹ keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

²² Be merciful to those who doubt; ²³ save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.^[f]
Doxology


²⁴ To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without faultand with great joy— ²⁵ to the only God our oSavior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

”Tradition”

[whag]

It would seem plausible that other minor church figures, not just inspired Tertullian, rejected Enoch solely on the basis of this rationale:

Tertullian on Enoch, opening line:

I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity,

[whag]

So, an argument from silence.

No. I just didn’t think you’d allow me to reference Jude and his obsession with eschatology.

[Cow Poke]

No. I just didn’t think you’d allow me to reference Jude and his obsession with eschatology.

Looks like somebody reminded you that Jude is one of the siblings of Jesus and not you're just trying to do damage control.

[whag]

Unless the members of the group were trying to portray Paul as an inferior apostle and calling on supposed superior apostles as support for their own claim to priority.

It beggars belief that James was not teaching his group a confused understanding of expiation between his meetings with Paul. He had at least a decade to influence the opinions of his group. He was A Pillar, which is a very significant metaphor for what he did. In actuality, he stumbled clumsily out of the gate, creating splinter groups full of antichrists. Consider 2 John, which you cross referenced previously:

¹⁸ Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. ¹⁹ They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

So, just to clarify and recalibrate here, my OP is mainly interested in how this can happen, not the eventual resolution. The resolution made good sense to expand the church, give alms for the poor, aid mendicants like Paul, etc…

It is readily apparent from other comments that the procedure was adopted on a fairly regular basis - Paul's reference to super apostles and his own status being no lesser than theirs being an example (2Corinthians 11:5; 12:11). Pointing out the failure by Peter and the failure by James' (possible) group follows hard on the statement that James, Peter, and John had affirmed his status and offered him "the right hand of fellowship" (Galatians 2:8-9). According to Luke, Paul gave warning in Miletus to the leaders of the church of Ephesus that they could expect similar splinter groups and problems to arise even from among themselves, "Even from among your own group men will arise, teaching perversions of the truth to draw the disciples away after them." (Acts 20:30).

And I would contend the seed of that idea was not planted by demons but people confused about tradition and how revelation works. Paul comes with the claim of a vision that he recounts in Galatians:

Paul Called by God


¹¹ I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. ¹² I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

¹³ For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of Godand tried to destroy it. ¹⁴ I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. ¹⁵ But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womband called me by his grace, was pleased ¹⁶ to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. ¹⁷ I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

¹⁸ Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas^[b] and stayed with him fifteen days. ¹⁹ I saw none of the other apostles—only James,the Lord’s brother. ²⁰ I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

²¹ Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. ²² I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.²³ They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” ²⁴ And they praised God because of me.

James’ and Peter’s jobs were to inculcate the church to prevent misunderstandings and splinterings. Paul is absolutely bewildered the belief would take hold.

[whag]

Looks like somebody reminded you that Jude is one of the siblings of Jesus and not you're just trying to do damage control.

Says the guy who didn’t immediately cite Jude?

You’re missing the point. He said there was a tradition that Jude was Jesus’ brother, and I pointed out Jude’s based almost entirely on tradition. Here’s just one:

⁸ In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. ⁹ But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”^[d]10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

The existence of tradition isn’t persuasive, especially when it’s based on one line.

[Cow Poke]

Says the guy who didn’t immediately cite Jude?

Still doing damage control.

You're the one who said....

...I always wondered why his other siblings didn’t undergo profound changes at seeing their brother come back to life.

You're the one who overlooked Jude.

[whag]

Still doing damage control.

You're the one who said....



You're the one who overlooked Jude.

You replied twice without mentioning Jude. That doesn’t sound like you to pass up an opportunity like that.

Trust me, you don’t want Jude to be Jesus’ brother. He took Enoch 1 to be inspired, which isn’t something someone related to Jesus wouldn’t do. He also took eschatology really seriously, thinking he was living in the last days.

[Cow Poke]

You replied twice without mentioning Jude.

Didn't feel like I needed to do your homework for you - you apparently either were unaware of him or forgot.

You made a dumb comment, and have been trying to do damage control ever since.