Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What Was Jesus Teaching His Disciples?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What Was Jesus Teaching His Disciples?

    It’s been said that between Jesus’ recorded interactions with his disciples, a lot of teaching transpired where Jesus passed on his skills and reinforced his new theology to them. For example, the disciples were illiterate, so they needed to learn Koine Greek to have discourse with the citizens of Jerusalem. It’s a massive assumption, but it seems reasonable given their charter. So that would be 3 years worth of instruction apart from the snapshots recorded in the gospels. Presumably, this teaching consisted of a good amount of reiterating his mission to them and explaining the mechanics of how his death would work in the redemption of humankind. It would be a foreign concept to them, but they’d comprehend it pretty quickly with a skilled teacher.

    It seems unlikely to me that 3 years’ worth of Jesus teaching his brother and Peter what his death would accomplish would result in their complete theological faceplant. At some point, they’d have to demonstrate to their teacher if they understood the concept, given the weight of their mission and consequences of getting it wrong in their proselytizing efforts.

  • #2

    Comment


    • #3
      If you're basing this primarily on an assumption of illiteracy, you need to demonstrate that before going any further. It seems highly implausible that a Roman tax collector like Matthew would have been illiterate, to start with. The importance of circular letters from authors like Paul early in the history of Christianity also call into question the idea that nobody could read.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        If you're basing this primarily on an assumption of illiteracy, you need to demonstrate that before going any further. It seems highly implausible that a Roman tax collector like Matthew would have been illiterate, to start with.
        This has nothing to do with any of their alleged illiteracy. I made that clear in the OP:

        For example, the disciples were illiterate, so they needed to learn Koine Greek to have discourse with the citizens of Jerusalem.


        Their being taught Greek was to demonstrate two types of teaching occurred—language and theology—and that they overcame illiteracy. I mentioned Peter and James specifically because they clearly didn’t understand the new theology.

        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        The importance of circular letters from authors like Paul early in the history of Christianity also call into question the idea that nobody could read.
        Forget literacy for now. I acknowledged that at least the fisherman learned to read and speak Greek. This is about how Jesus’ brother and Peter slept during three years of theology instruction.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by whag View Post

          This has nothing to do with any of their alleged illiteracy. I made that clear in the OP:

          For example, the disciples were illiterate, so they needed to learn Koine Greek to have discourse with the citizens of Jerusalem.


          Their being taught Greek was to demonstrate two types of teaching occurred—language and theology—and that they overcame illiteracy. I mentioned Peter and James specifically because they clearly didn’t understand the new theology.



          Forget literacy for now. I acknowledged that at least the fisherman learned to read and speak Greek. This is about how Jesus’ brother and Peter slept during three years of theology instruction.
          So you're proposing, if I understand this correctly, that 3 years of instruction would not have been enough to significantly change one's worldview? What, then, do you propose as an alternate explanation? Is it one that the gospels do not recount actual events? Or something along different lines?
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

            So you're proposing, if I understand this correctly, that 3 years of instruction would not have been enough to significantly change one's worldview? What, then, do you propose as an alternate explanation? Is it one that the gospels do not recount actual events? Or something along different lines?
            I’m proposing the exact opposite. Jesus’ three years of theological instruction is more than enough time to convey to his brother and Peter the simple idea of vicarious atonement. Three years is more than enough time to cement that idea in their heads, as well as give Jesus assurance they understood the central idea of the great commission.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by whag View Post

              I’m proposing the exact opposite. Jesus’ three years of theological instruction is more than enough time to convey to his brother and Peter the simple idea of vicarious atonement. Three years is more than enough time to cement that idea in their heads, as well as give Jesus assurance they understood the central idea of the great commission.
              This argument might work if people were perfectly rational, but they aren't. Many people hold onto ideas and beliefs even when they have significant evidence to the contrary. Some people learn things in days, some in weeks, some in years, and some take decades. Then you have those that never learn at all despite the best possible teachers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                This argument might work if people were perfectly rational, but they aren't. Many people hold onto ideas and beliefs even when they have significant evidence to the contrary. Some people learn things in days, some in weeks, some in years, and some take decades. Then you have those that never learn at all despite the best possible teachers.
                The disciples’ imperfection is the standard response, but it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny if you think about it. Flawed rationality is an acceptable trait for a new student. Deep irrationality is usually exposed and corrected as the teacher comes to know his disciple. Educating the disciples would have involved some kind verbal assurance on the disciples’ part that they understood what they were commissioned to teach.

                Jesus seems to be surprised by Peter’s misapprehension and delivers a stinging, shaming rebuke:

                But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”


                Inability to understand three years of theological teaching on the matter of Jesus’ mission suggests mental deficiency of a sort. James and Peter were spreading a wrong theology for at least a year before they met Paul, which makes little sense given the quantity and quality of their education.

                ​​​​​​​


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post

                  The disciples’ imperfection is the standard response, but it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny if you think about it. Flawed rationality is an acceptable trait for a new student. Deep irrationality is usually exposed and corrected as the teacher comes to know his disciple. Educating the disciples would have involved some kind verbal assurance on the disciples’ part that they understood what they were commissioned to teach.

                  Jesus seems to be surprised by Peter’s misapprehension and delivers a stinging, shaming rebuke:

                  But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”


                  Inability to understand three years of theological teaching on the matter of Jesus’ mission suggests mental deficiency of a sort. James and Peter were spreading a wrong theology for at least a year before they met Paul, which makes little sense given the quantity and quality of their education.

                  ​​​​​​​

                  It should be self evident that Peter understood what Jesus had been saying. That he denied the possibility of Jesus being correct is a perfectly human response - that response is, after all, the first stage of grief.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by whag View Post

                    The disciples’ imperfection is the standard response, but it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny if you think about it. Flawed rationality is an acceptable trait for a new student. Deep irrationality is usually exposed and corrected as the teacher comes to know his disciple. Educating the disciples would have involved some kind verbal assurance on the disciples’ part that they understood what they were commissioned to teach.

                    Jesus seems to be surprised by Peter’s misapprehension and delivers a stinging, shaming rebuke:

                    But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”


                    Inability to understand three years of theological teaching on the matter of Jesus’ mission suggests mental deficiency of a sort. James and Peter were spreading a wrong theology for at least a year before they met Paul, which makes little sense given the quantity and quality of their education.

                    ​​​​​​​

                    At this point you are arguing from personal incredulity. This kind of denial, even when a person knows they are wrong, is quite common. There are certain things that no amount of education can overcome.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      It should be self evident that Peter understood what Jesus had been saying. That he denied the possibility of Jesus being correct is a perfectly human response - that response is, after all, the first stage of grief.
                      I never discounted the reality of his response but James’ (Jesus’ brother’s) and Peter’s apparent sleeping during the theological portion of their education. That they couldn’t comprehend a relatively simple theology and continued to spread soul-imperiling information (Jesus called it dangerous) for a year or more indicates something wonky is going on. Obviously, I only cited Peter’s rebuke to remind you he’d been warned to do more homework.

                      Vicarious atonement ain’t rocket science, especially to a people who already bought into the concept of blood magic.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                        At this point you are arguing from personal incredulity. This kind of denial, even when a person knows they are wrong, is quite common. There are certain things that no amount of education can overcome.
                        See post #11. I only cited that verse to indicate Peter had been warned. Presumably, Jesus’ blood brother had, as well.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          Vicarious atonement ain’t rocket science, especially to a people who already bought into the concept of blood magic.
                          Your concept needs unpacking. Assuming it means that humanity's sin was somehow dumped on Jesus and that he paid the penalty on every human's behalf when he was crucified, that is not a viable interpretation.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Your concept needs unpacking. Assuming it means that humanity's sin was somehow dumped on Jesus and that he paid the penalty on every human's behalf when he was crucified, that is not a viable interpretation.
                            Jesus did all the unpacking that was necessary in teaching the disciples what it meant. That James still fundamentally misunderstood his brother’s mission after three years of rigorous teaching is the question that demands an answer.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by whag View Post

                              Jesus did all the unpacking that was necessary in teaching the disciples what it meant. That James still fundamentally misunderstood his brother’s mission after three years of rigorous teaching is the question that demands an answer.
                              James misunderstood? What precisely? His teachings were not in conflict with those of Paul, nor yet those of Christ. He certainly contradicts teachings that misrepresent Paul's.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
                              22 responses
                              97 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                              Started by Neptune7, 04-15-2024, 06:54 AM
                              25 responses
                              150 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Cerebrum123  
                              Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
                              103 responses
                              560 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post tabibito  
                              Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
                              39 responses
                              251 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post tabibito  
                              Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                              154 responses
                              1,017 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Working...
                              X