Redemption: Being saved or born again

[JimL]

Perhaps having experienced sin is the only way we won't sin in the afterlife. So we can understand how evil sin is. See my last answer to you.

And Jesus does make it perfectly clear to everyone that he is the only way to be saved. The problem is not everyone believes him. Free will and all that.

And therein lies the big problem for Christianity. First off, no, Jesus does not make it perfectly clear to everyone. For one thing there are literally billions of people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus. Second, Jesus simply claiming to be God and savior is not making it perfectly clear to everyone anymore than it would be if you claimed the same thing about yourself.

Source: https://www.livingchristian.org/bible-verses-blogs/15-bible-verses-about-jesus-being-the-only-way

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, - 1 Timothy 2:5

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. - John 10:9

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. - 1 John 5:20

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See above!! That not believing the miraculous claims one makes about himself is a sin in itself is ridiculous. If you told me you were god and that you walked on water and I thought it over and said to myself that's ridiculous and I don't believe it. According to your way of thinking that disbelief in and of itself would be a sin. Ridiculous!!!

[Diogenes]

Egypt is certainly where we find the earliest evidence of a post-mortem judgement and for the Egyptian who had been correctly buried with all the appropriate mortuary rituals carried out, the belief existed that the deceased would then become an akh which translates approximately as a "glorified being", and in I Corinthians 15 Paul writes about the resurrected body being "raised in glory".

We also need to bear in mind that in the first century CE AD the cult of Osiris was still an extant religion and initiates to those mysteries believed that as Osiris had died and risen back to life so by their own ritual assimilation they too could obtain immortal life. In Christianity Paul believed it was through baptism that the Christian was ritually assimilated to Christ in his death in order to become one with him in his resurrection, as he writes in Romans chapter six:

Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ⁴ Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Comparative religion is a fascinating subject.

First Osiris never left the Underworld. Second, if you're going to wax theologically, I would suggest taken the whole context of the chapter into account regarding baptism. As for Paul's language in 1st Corinthians, again, tomatoes and apples.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

First Osiris never left the Underworld. Second, if you're going to wax theologically, I would suggest taken the whole context of the chapter into account regarding baptism. As for Paul's language in 1st Corinthians, again, tomatoes and apples.

My comments have nothing to do Theology. That is a completely different discipline.

[Sparko]

Egypt is certainly where we find the earliest evidence of a post-mortem judgement and for the Egyptian who had been correctly buried with all the appropriate mortuary rituals carried out, the belief existed that the deceased would then become an akh which translates approximately as a "glorified being", and in I Corinthians 15 Paul writes about the resurrected body being "raised in glory".

We also need to bear in mind that in the first century CE the cult of Osiris was still an extant religion and initiates to those mysteries believed that as Osiris had died and risen back to life so by their own ritual assimilation they too could obtain immortal life. In Christianity Paul believed it was through baptism that the Christian was ritually assimilated to Christ in his death in order to become one with him in his resurrection, as he writes in Romans chapter six:

Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ⁴ Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Comparative religion is a fascinating subject.

Oh lord, the whole Jesus was based on Osiris theory? That too has been debunked for decades now. Wasn't Ferrell Till one of those who proposed that long ago? At least try to use more modern conspiracy theories. Your reading list is way out of date. The copycat theories have all been debunked.

[Sparko]

And therein lies the big problem for Christianity. First off, no, Jesus does not make it perfectly clear to everyone. For one thing there are literally billions of people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus. Second, Jesus simply claiming to be God and savior is not making it perfectly clear to everyone anymore than it would be if you claimed the same thing about yourself.

Jesus made it perfectly clear. He also gave us the commission to tell those billions of people about it. You are free to believe it or not. That is what free will means. You have no excuse as to not knowing what Jesus claimed and promised, so what's your excuse going to be when you stand before him?

See above!! That not believing the miraculous claims one makes about himself is a sin in itself is ridiculous. If you told me you were god and that you walked on water and I thought it over and said to myself that's ridiculous and I don't believe it. According to your way of thinking that disbelief in and of itself would be a sin. Ridiculous!!!

You said Jesus did not make it clear that he was the only way. I show you that he did and now your claim "well why should I believe him?" which is a completely different topic. Jesus proved he was who he said he was by doing miracles and coming back to life. You are free to believe him or not. That is all up to you. God doesn't force anyone to choose him. But claiming that it is not clear that Jesus is the only way is not something you can complain about. It's right there in the bible and you have been told about it in great detail. You, JimL have no excuse. You choose to reject Jesus and God even though you have heard of him and know exactly what is needed to be saved, and refuse to do it.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Oh lord, the whole Jesus was based on Osiris theory?

Do you think so? I do not.

[JimL]

Jesus made it perfectly clear. He also gave us the commission to tell those billions of people about it. You are free to believe it or not. That is what free will means. You have no excuse as to not knowing what Jesus claimed and promised, so what's your excuse going to be when you stand before him?

Sparko, you know yourself that he didn't make it perfectly clear because you never believed it yourself. You had to be convinced over time. And what if you died when you still didn't believe. What then? In fact most of the people at the time of Jesus thought it to be a bunch of crap. It was a small sect of believers and most of them knew nothing of Jesus personally, they only knew and believed what they were told to believe. You say that not believing apostle's at the time, just like I don't believe you now, is a sin and that is total nonsense. And if that is how your god judges people, on whether they believe this or that, then no offense, but that would be a stupid god and a stupid religion.

You said Jesus did not make it clear that he was the only way. I show you that he did and now your claim "well why should I believe him?" which is a completely different topic. Jesus proved he was who he said he was by doing miracles and coming back to life. You are free to believe him or not. That is all up to you. God doesn't force anyone to choose him. But claiming that it is not clear that Jesus is the only way is not something you can complain about. It's right there in the bible and you have been told about it in great detail. You, JimL have no excuse. You choose to reject Jesus and God even though you have heard of him and know exactly what is needed to be saved, and refuse to do it.

And I just showed you that Jesus did not make it perfectly clear, because you didn't know or believe it yourself. So, again, what if you died before it was " made perfectly clear" to you?

[Sparko]

Do you think so? I do not.

You do not what?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You do not what?

You posed this question:

Oh lord, the whole Jesus was based on Osiris theory?

Hence I asked in reply:

Do you think so? I do not.

[Sparko]

Sparko, you know yourself that he didn't make it perfectly clear because you never believed it yourself. You had to be convinced over time.

I didn't know what the bible and Jesus said until I was in my 40's, JimL. When I did, I was convinced. It was perfectly clear.

And what if you died when you still didn't believe. What then?

The way I figure it, God knows who will accept him and who won't, even before we do. I don't believe he will let anyone who will believe in him die before they do. So maybe there is still hope for you JimL.

In fact most of the people at the time of Jesus thought it to be a bunch of crap. It was a small sect of believers and most of them knew nothing of Jesus personally, they only knew and believed what they were told to believe. You say that not believing apostle's at the time, just like I don't believe you now, is a sin and that is total nonsense. And if that is how your god judges people, on whether they believe this or that, then no offense, but that would be a stupid god and a stupid religion.

1. Jesus came back to life and did miracles then. They really had no excuse to not believe other than stubbornness. Pretty much just like you now.
2. Not believing is not a sin itself. At least not when it is done in ignorance. Rejecting God when you know the truth is. That is open rebellion. The actual problem is that you have plenty of sins in your life JimL. And without Jesus as your savior, THOSE sins are what will condemn you. Basically Jesus took the punishment for all of the sins committed by those who believe in him. For them, their sins have already been paid for and they are free to enter heaven. Those who reject Jesus, like you do, will still have to pay for those sins, and since you reject Jesus, you will have to pay for them yourself. So unbelief is not the sin that puts you in hell, it is basically rejecting anything that can save you from going to hell for your other sins. Like if you were drowning and someone offers you a life jacket. If you don't take the life jacket you will drown. If you don't believe the life jacket will save you, that's your problem. You are on your own.

And I just showed you that Jesus did not make it perfectly clear, because you didn't know or believe it yourself. So, again, what if you died before it was " made perfectly clear" to you?

Just because I didn't know what Jesus said doesn't mean he didn't make it perfectly clear, JimL. Just because you don't believe what Jesus said still doesn't mean it wasn't made perfectly clear. It just means I was ignorant and you are stubborn.

If I had died before I believed, I would end up in hell. Not for not believing but because of the sins I committed. But as I also said, I think that if God knows someone will accept him during their life, he will make sure they hear the gospel and get to accept it before they die. He knows everything, even the future.

[Sparko]

You posed this question:



Hence I asked in reply:

Do you think so? I do not.

Then why did you bring it up? And you seem to think that the Christian afterlife is based on the Egyptian one.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Then why did you bring it up? And you seem to think that the Christian afterlife is based on the Egyptian one.

I noted there are some distinct similarities in both the imagery of post-mortem judgement, I provided two examples, and indeed in beliefs. That does not mean that one is based upon the other. You must try not to see certain topics in such an overly simplistic manner.

It is in Egypt that we find the earliest evidence of a belief in post-mortem judgement that pre-dates Christianity by millennia.

For Egyptians it was the heart that was believed to be the seat of the soul and in their iconography and belief it is the heart that is weighed in this post-mortem judgement against the feather of Maāt, a representation of Egyptian beliefs including truth and justice. Maāt was also a goddess.

The individual who had respected and maintained Maāt during life and had received a proper funeral at death could achieve a state of eternal beatitude as a glorified being -or akh with an afterlife enjoyed in the Field of Reeds in the kingdom of Osiris. The unworthy heart would be consumed by Ammit and annihilated. For Egyptians this complete destruction of the soul was feared far more than physical death.

Hence we can see distinct parallels with Christian ideas about divine judgement and the afterlife, where the saved attain a glorified state and reside with their deity in a perfect world, while the damned are eternally punished.

[Sparko]

I noted there are some distinct similarities in both the imagery of post-mortem judgement, I provided two examples, and indeed in beliefs. That does not mean that one is based upon the other. You must try not to see certain topics in such an overly simplistic manner.

It is in Egypt that we find the earliest evidence of a belief in post-mortem judgement that pre-dates Christianity by millennia.

For Egyptians it was the heart that was believed to be the seat of the soul and in their iconography and belief it is the heart that is weighed in this post-mortem judgement against the feather of Maāt, a representation of Egyptian beliefs including truth and justice. Maāt was also a goddess.

The individual who had respected and maintained Maāt during life and had received a proper funeral at death could achieve a state of eternal beatitude as a glorified being -or akh with an afterlife enjoyed in the Field of Reeds in the kingdom of Osiris. The unworthy heart would be consumed by Ammit and annihilated. For Egyptians this complete destruction of the soul was feared far more than physical death.

Hence we can see distinct parallels with Christian ideas about divine judgement and the afterlife, where the saved attain a glorified state and reside with their deity in a perfect world, while the damned are eternally punished.

As I said, there will be parallels between afterlife beliefs because the subject is the same. People want justice so they will believe in a judgment by God. Good will be rewarded and Evil punished and so on.

And as a Christian, I believe, of course, that my religion is the correct one. And that means that according to the bible, mankind started with specific knowledge of God and good and evil (see Genesis) and as time went on, people spread out and the knowledge changed and got lost and reinvented (like a game of telephone) and eventually various other religions were created but all having similar beliefs. I don't expect you to believe that though.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

As I said, there will be parallels between afterlife beliefs because the subject is the same. People want justice so they will believe in a judgment by God. Good will be rewarded and Evil punished and so on.

In the ANE only in Egypt. The Semitic belief in Sheol was the pit where everyone went, rich and poor, king and commoner with no post-mortem judgement.

And as a Christian, I believe, of course, that my religion is the correct one. And that means that according to the bible, mankind started with specific knowledge of God and good and evil (see Genesis) and as time went on, people spread out and the knowledge changed and got lost and reinvented (like a game of telephone) and eventually various other religions were created but all having similar beliefs. I don't expect you to believe that though.

Your beliefs have more similarities with the ancient Egyptian idea of an afterlife than they do with that of the Semitic peoples of the ANE.

[Sparko]

In the ANE only in Egypt. The Semitic belief in Sheol was the pit where everyone went, rich and poor, king and commoner with no post-mortem judgement.

Your beliefs have more similarities with the ancient Egyptian idea of an afterlife than they do with that of the Semitic peoples of the ANE.

Sure HA. You might actually try reading the Old Testament sometimes.

Sheol is basically the domain of the dead. But it was divided into two areas, as is described in Luke 16:19–31 - One for the good and one for the sinners. This is the temporary place I mentioned earlier that is the waiting place until the resurrection and judgement. The equivalent term for sheol in the OT is hades in the NT.

Physical resurrection was believed by the Hebrews also.

Job 19:25–27
I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Psalm 16:8–11
I have set the LORD always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol

Psalm 49:13–15
This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell. But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.

Isaiah 26:19–20
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.


And the judgment is mentioned in Daniel. Where the righteous get eternal life and the sinful everlasting shame.

Daniel 12:2–3
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.