Originally posted by Roy
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNot that I (necessarily) subscribe to the basic theory, but the Vatican City itself remains as one of a few extant parts of the ancient Roman empire, though I believe that Napoleon essentially took the Vatican.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI tried checking. I think the Vatican shared the fate of Rome in 410 and 476, and ceased being part of the Roman Empire at the same time as the rest of Rome did, but confirming this'd take more research than I have time for.
During the attack (1527 ADhttp://vatican.com/articles/info/the_sack_of_rome-a4149
Still trying to find that bit I remember about two very small areas that haven't been successfully invaded since Roman Republic times.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostAs it happens, the 400s aren't needed to establish fall of the Vatican. Official Church of Rome records show that the Vatican fell in 1527.
During the attack (1527 ADhttp://vatican.com/articles/info/the_sack_of_rome-a4149
Still trying to find that bit I remember about two very small areas that haven't been successfully invaded since Roman Republic times.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostHere is an excerpt from Daniel's vision of a large statue:
So "partly strong and partly brittle" refers to the remnants of the Roman Empire, and those remnants have persisted to this day. Other kingdoms aren't in view here, what would falsify this prophecy would be a reuniting of the remnants of the Roman empire into another kingdom.
The next step is God's kingdom:
Blessings,
LeeVeritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe problem, Lee, is that development HAS occurred in that area. It simply has a different name (Hillah), much of the area is now aggrarian, and the heart of what was Babylon is a tourist area. So perhaps the board of the tourist area would suffice? Or the mayor of Hillah, which occupies some of what was formerly ancient Babylon?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo you think Spain is an extant remnant of the Roman Empire that will be crushed by 'God's Kingdom' - despite it already having been already conquered by the Visigoths in the 5th century, the Arabs in the 8th century, various Christian nations in the 13th century, and the French then the British in the 19th Century - not including various incursions by Magyars, Moroccans, and other Arabs, plus various internal conflicts. Your expected 'God's Kingdom' cannot crush the remnants of the Roman Empire since they will continue to be remnants of the Roman Empire even after being conquered.
So I would say the current situation with various peoples occupying this region suits the prophecy nicely, there has not been a fifth kingdom over this area.
Originally posted by Roy View PostYour own source says this already happened:
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLee, you seem to understand the Kingdom of God much like the Jews of Jesus' day did. Rome was shattered about the 5th century with the triumph of Christianity; the kingdom of God is within you.
"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever." Da 2:44.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSo I would say the current situation with various peoples occupying this region suits the prophecy nicely, there has not been a fifth kingdom over this area.Yes, but I take it that even then Babylon was not rebuilt.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostThough the tourist area is of the ruins of Babylon, the city has not therefore been rebuilt or reinhabited.
Blessings,
LeeThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Roy View PostBut since you would also say the opposite situation (if the Roman Empire had never been conquered by Visigoths) suits the prophecy equally nicely, there is no way to falsify the prophesy in your mind.
'The prophesy is true - don't bother me with facts'."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, no, the Roman Empire had to disintegrate somehow into "partly strong and partly brittle.""After 312 BC, Babylon was for a while used as a capital by the Seleucid dynastyJorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostSo, what did the prophecy say? Not rebuilt? Or, rebuilt, but insignificant and almost disappearing?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSo I would say the current situation with various peoples occupying this region suits the prophecy nicely, there has not been a fifth kingdom over this area.
Yes, but I take it that even then Babylon was not rebuilt.
Blessings,
Lee
A prophesy that any one city or another will not be rebuilt is not significant.
The prophesy concerning the city of Tyre being never rebuilt failed, because it has been rebuilt and occupied for most of history. There are numerous prophecies that have not come true. Point to a couple of maybes is not a good argument.Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-24-2017, 08:19 AM.
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