The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

[carpedm9587]

Argh! Cooties!

[Roy]

What remnants would those be? There isn't a lot of the Roman Empire that hasn't been conquered at some time or other. Again, what remnants are you talking about?

Well, mainly Europe and parts of the Middle East.

You think modern Europe is a remnant of the Roman Empire? Even though much of it (Germany/Denmark/Poland/Scandinavia) was never even part of the Roman Empire?

Be specific. Which parts of Europe and which parts of the Middle East are remnants of the Roman Empire. Spain? Jerusalem? Scotland? Jordan? Sicily? Oman? Rome?

Well, they haven't been reunited or reconquered. So far the prophecy is holding up! And the next stage will be the establishing of God's kingdom.

Since your prophecy depends on there still being extant remnants of the Roman Empire to be crushed by 'God's kingdom',* unless you can actually name an extant remnant of the Roman Empire your prophecy has failed.

*In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end,

[Roy]

Wait. What? Babylon was still standing in Alexander's day. It was the capital of the Persian Empire which he just defeated. In fact that was where he died. No need to rebuild it.

Or am I taking your statement too literally?

I think you're over-estimating Lee's grasp of history. He not only doesn't know that Babylon existed long after Christianity, he doesn't seem to have heard of the fall of Rome.

[Jedidiah]

So.. about 4 billion years...

So far.

ETA: Most of that 4 billion years was before this prophesy was even made.

[carpedm9587]

So far.

ETA: Most of that 4 billion years was before this prophesy was even made.

I was looking forward - and I used the wrong number. Assuming we don't pollute ourselves to death, the sun will make the earth uninhabitable in about 1-2 billion years. So we'll have to wait until then to know if the prophecy is "fulfilled."

One of the many reasons I don't have a lot of use for "prophecy"

[lee_merrill]

Wait. What? Babylon was still standing in Alexander's day. It was the capital of the Persian Empire which he just defeated. In fact that was where he died. No need to rebuild it.

Encarta Encyclopedia reads:



So yes, the city was there in Alexander's day, but it was apparently in some disrepair.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Be specific. Which parts of Europe and which parts of the Middle East are remnants of the Roman Empire. Spain? Jerusalem? Scotland? Jordan? Sicily? Oman? Rome? Since your prophecy depends on there still being extant remnants of the Roman Empire to be crushed by 'God's kingdom',* unless you can actually name an extant remnant of the Roman Empire your prophecy has failed.

Well, here is a map of the Roman Empire at about 117 A.D. So that would include Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Switzerland, Austria, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Israel, parts of Egypt, etc.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

So at what point does one say, "yeah - that's 'built-up' enough to qualify?"

Well, like the rebuilding of Jerusalem, it's a city again, and reinhabited.

This is the problem with prophecies, IMO. There is just too much room for fudging and interpretation.

Let's say when I can address the mayor of Babylon...

Blessings!
Lee

[carpedm9587]

Well, like the rebuilding of Jerusalem, it's a city again, and reinhabited.


Let's say when I can address the mayor of Babylon...

Blessings!
Lee

The problem, Lee, is that development HAS occurred in that area. It simply has a different name (Hillah), much of the area is now aggrarian, and the heart of what was Babylon is a tourist area. So perhaps the board of the tourist area would suffice? Or the mayor of Hillah, which occupies some of what was formerly ancient Babylon?

You have placed a great deal of weight on these prophecies - that much is clear. For me - it's simply not tenable as a basis for belief.

[Jedidiah]

I was looking forward - and I used the wrong number. Assuming we don't pollute ourselves to death, the sun will make the earth uninhabitable in about 1-2 billion years. So we'll have to wait until then to know if the prophecy is "fulfilled."

Ah.

[psstein]

The argument from fulfilled (or unfulfilled) prophecy doesn't strike me as a particularly strong or good argument.

[psstein]

The historical-critical methodology of modern historians doesn't accept miracles (the core component of the Jesus story) on the basis that they can't be shown to be true, NOT because of their "own dogmatic commitments".

Most modern historians don't adhere to "historical-critical" methodology, because that term doesn't exist outside New Testament Studies.

From my experience with professors of my graduate program, most will say that we can't adjudicate on miracles because it requires a philosophical argument beyond the historical. As it currently stands, the kind of "historical-critical" methodology that Ehrman is indebted to is in real trouble. Many NT scholars are calling form critical assumptions into question.

[Roy]

Be specific. Which parts of Europe and which parts of the Middle East are remnants of the Roman Empire. Spain? Jerusalem? Scotland? Jordan? Sicily? Oman? Rome? Since your prophecy depends on there still being extant remnants of the Roman Empire to be crushed by 'God's kingdom',* unless you can actually name an extant remnant of the Roman Empire your prophecy has failed.

Well, here is a map of the Roman Empire at about 117 A.D. So that would include Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Switzerland, Austria, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Israel, parts of Egypt, etc.

So you think Spain is an extant remnant of the Roman Empire that will be crushed by 'God's Kingdom' - despite it already having been already conquered by the Visigoths in the 5th century, the Arabs in the 8th century, various Christian nations in the 13th century, and the French then the British in the 19th Century - not including various incursions by Magyars, Moroccans, and other Arabs, plus various internal conflicts. Your expected 'God's Kingdom' cannot crush the remnants of the Roman Empire since they will continue to be remnants of the Roman Empire even after being conquered.

Since under this standard your prophecy can only be disestablished by millions of years of continental drift or the wholesale destruction of the Earth, I can only conclude that it is either already falsified or unfalsifiable. Either way your argument is toast.

[Roy]

Well, like the rebuilding of Jerusalem, it's a city again, and reinhabited.

Your own source says this already happened:

[Tassman]

Most modern historians don't adhere to "historical-critical" methodology, because that term doesn't exist outside New Testament Studies.

From my experience with professors of my graduate program, most will say that we can't adjudicate on miracles because it requires a philosophical argument beyond the historical.

As it currently stands, the kind of "historical-critical" methodology that Ehrman is indebted to is in real trouble. Many NT scholars are calling form critical assumptions into question.