UFO/UAP Disclosure’s Effect on Religious Belief

[Cerebrum123]

I would be theologically troubled by the discovery of intelligent extraterrestrial life. It wouldn't automatically cancel out all the evidence for the resurrection but it would require a lot of recalibration. The entire drama of salvation in the Bible is predicated on the idea that humans are special and uniquely have the ability to commune with God.

That is the source of a lot of the theological conflict with the concept of extra-terrestrials. As much as the concept is fun in fiction, I don't think it meshes with Christian theology.

[rogue06]

I hear it and just think of kobolds. They are similar to goblins.

Both goblins and kobolds would take offense at that comparison.

[Cerebrum123]

Both goblins and kobolds would take offense at that comparison.

For most topics, I wouldn't use Wikipedia but this one is harmless enough.

Source: Wikipedia

A kobold (occasionally cobold) is a mythical sprite. Having spread into Europe with various spellings including "goblin" and "hobgoblin", and later taking root and stemming from Germanic mythology, the concept survived into modern times in German folklore.

© Copyright Original Source

[rogue06]

For most topics, I wouldn't use Wikipedia but this one is harmless enough.

Source: Wikipedia

A kobold (occasionally cobold) is a mythical sprite. Having spread into Europe with various spellings including "goblin" and "hobgoblin", and later taking root and stemming from Germanic mythology, the concept survived into modern times in German folklore.

© Copyright Original Source

I'm talkin' 'bout the real ones. The ones in D&D, not some made up myths.




FWIU, kobolds were associated with mines and could be either beneficial or deleterious

[Cerebrum123]

I'm talkin' 'bout the real ones. The ones in D&D, not some made up myths.

[cite=[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)"]Wikipedia[/URL]]Kobolds appeared as monsters alongside goblins, orcs, and trolls in the 1971 wargame Chainmail, as part of Gary Gygax's "fantasy supplement" inspired by The Hobbit and other fantasy novels.^[3] This supplement inspired the first editions of Dungeons & Dragons (1974), where kobolds appear again.^[4]In these early appearances, they are only described as creatures similar to goblins.

I don't have much experience with D&D but I do know some Google-fu.

FWIU, kobolds were associated with mines and could be either beneficial or deleterious

The D&D version has them as draconic and living in forests or subterranean locations.

Source: [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)"

Wikipedia[/URL]]Kobolds were first depicted as hairless humanoids with small horns in Gygax's Monster Manual (1977) for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D), which describes them as aggressive, tribal creatures living in dark forests or subterranean settings.^[6]

In 1987, Roger E. Moore published the editorial "Tucker's kobolds" in the magazine Dragon, describing a game scenario where a horde of well-prepared kobolds uses guerrilla tactics to significantly challenge a far more powerful party of adventurers.^[7] This editorial became popular among roleplaying fans, and helped kobolds gain traction.^[8] The AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (1993) introduced Urds, a race similar to kobolds with batlike wings.^[9]

Later editions of the game emphasized more draconic aspects, and suggest that kobolds are biologically related to dragons, and view them as an object of worship and servitude.^[10] In the 3rd edition, the original kobolds were replaced henceforth by the new draconic ones.

© Copyright Original Source

[rogue06]

[cite=[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)"]Wikipedia[/URL]]Kobolds appeared as monsters alongside goblins, orcs, and trolls in the 1971 wargame Chainmail, as part of Gary Gygax's "fantasy supplement" inspired by The Hobbit and other fantasy novels.^[3] This supplement inspired the first editions of Dungeons & Dragons (1974), where kobolds appear again.^[4]In these early appearances, they are only described as creatures similar to goblins.

I don't have much experience with D&D but I do know some Google-fu.



The D&D version has them as draconic and living in forests or subterranean locations.

Source: [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)"

Wikipedia[/URL]]Kobolds were first depicted as hairless humanoids with small horns in Gygax's Monster Manual (1977) for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D), which describes them as aggressive, tribal creatures living in dark forests or subterranean settings.^[6]

In 1987, Roger E. Moore published the editorial "Tucker's kobolds" in the magazine Dragon, describing a game scenario where a horde of well-prepared kobolds uses guerrilla tactics to significantly challenge a far more powerful party of adventurers.^[7] This editorial became popular among roleplaying fans, and helped kobolds gain traction.^[8] The AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (1993) introduced Urds, a race similar to kobolds with batlike wings.^[9]

Later editions of the game emphasized more draconic aspects, and suggest that kobolds are biologically related to dragons, and view them as an object of worship and servitude.^[10] In the 3rd edition, the original kobolds were replaced henceforth by the new draconic ones.

© Copyright Original Source

All humancentric descriptions.

NO True Kobold would say they were related to goblins.

And NO True Goblin would say they were related to kobolds.

Them thar is fightin' words.

[Cerebrum123]

All humancentric descriptions.

Oh no, rogue06 has gone woke!

NO True Kobold would say they were related to goblins.

And NO True Goblin would say they were related to kobolds.

Them thar is fightin' words.

Now I'm going to make a green Kobold raised by Goblins next time I play Solasta Crown of the Magister(it's a D&D 5E based game).

[Mountain Man]

I would be theologically troubled by the discovery of intelligent extraterrestrial life. It wouldn't automatically cancel out all the evidence for the resurrection but it would require a lot of recalibration. The entire drama of salvation in the Bible is predicated on the idea that humans are special and uniquely have the ability to commune with God.

The only thing the Bible says about us is that we are made in God's image. There's nothing in scripture that would preclude him from creating other beings in his image elsewhere in the universe.

[Sparko]

Yeah, I never spend any time worrying about this. It was, however, interesting when we used to have Mormons here with their own strange beliefs on this. Was it planet Kolob?

CS Lewis wrote some novels about aliens. Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.

[NorrinRadd]

I just remember thinking it sounded like a Marvel Comic Book planet.

Battlestar Galactica planet. They drew on mythologies, including Mormonism, for, e.g., the "Lords of Kobol."

[NorrinRadd]

That is the source of a lot of the theological conflict with the concept of extra-terrestrials. As much as the concept is fun in fiction, I don't think it meshes with Christian theology.

If they're visiting here, it lends itself to stuff like Vorlons and Taelons and "Ancient Astronauts" and Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods."

[Cerebrum123]

If they're visiting here, it lends itself to stuff like Vorlons and Taelons and "Ancient Astronauts" and Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods."

I don't think the evidence really supports actual extraterrestrials. There are quite a few people who have come to the conclusion that they are something else. One of them I know of fervently believed he was an abductee.

"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships." - Arthur C. Clarke, New York Times Book Review, 07/27/75

"We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth." - Brad Steiger, [cited in] Blue Book Files Released in Canadian UFO Report, Vol. 4, No. 4, 1977, p. 20

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past." -Dr. Jacques Vallee citing the extensive research of Bertrand Meheust [Science-Fiction et Soucoupes Volantes (Paris, 1978); Soucoupes Volantes et Folklore (Paris, 1985)], in Confrontations, p. 146, 159-161

"I became entirely given over to extreme dread. The fear was so powerful that it seemed to make my personality completely evaporate... 'Whitley' ceased to exist. What was left was a body and a state of raw fear so great that
it swept about me like a thick, suffocating curtain, turning paralysis into a condition that seemed close to death...I died and a wild animal appeared in my place." - Whitley Strieber, Communion, p. 25-26

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was
going stark, raving mad." - Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45

"I wondered if I might not be in the grip of demons, if they were not making me suffer for their own purposes, or simply for their enjoyment." - Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 172

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away." - Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 181

"Why were my visitors so secretive, hiding themselves behind my consciousness. I could only conclude that they were using me and did not want me to know why...What if they were dangerous? Then I was terribly dangerous because I was playing a role in acclimatizing people to them." - Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 96

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Are there any Christians here who have thoughts about the “disclosure” about aliens and alien craft that seems to be ramping up ? What do you believe it is, and do you find the eyewitness testimonies of people credible and/or challenging or difficult to comport to your worldview?

Should these allegations be correct [and I seriously doubt that they are] and given that these alleged aliens have craft that can travel vast distances, something humans at present cannot do, thereby suggesting their technology is far superior to our own; would it be a sort of divine "Here's one I made earlier"?

[Cow Poke]

Should these allegations be correct [and I seriously doubt that they are]

What "allegations"?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

What "allegations"?

I assumed the following was the topic of this thread.

From June 6 https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ech-spacecraft

The US has been urged to disclose evidence of UFOs after a whistleblower former intelligence official said the government has possession of “intact and partially intact” alien vehicles.

The former intelligence official David Grusch, who led analysis of unexplained anomalous phenomena (UAP) within a US Department of Defense agency, has alleged that the US has craft of non-human origin.

Information on these vehicles is being illegally withheld from Congress, Grusch told the Debrief. Grusch said when he turned over classified information about the vehicles to Congress he suffered retaliation from government officials. He left the government in April after a 14-year career in US intelligence.

Jonathan Grey, a current US intelligence official at the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (Nasic), confirmed the existence of “exotic materials” to the Debrief, adding: “We are not alone.”

The disclosures come after a swell of credible sightings and reports have revived attention in alien ships, and potentially visits, in recent years.

In 2021, the Pentagon released a report on UAP – the term is preferred to UFO by much of the extraterrestrial community – which found more than 140 instances of UAP encounters that could not be explained.

The report followed a leak of military footage that showed apparently inexplicable happenings in the sky, while navy pilots testified that they had frequently had encounters with strange craft off the US coast.

In an interview with the Debrief journalists Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal, who previously exposed the existence of a secret Pentagon program that investigated UFOs, Grusch said the US government and defense contractors had been recovering fragments of non-human craft, and in some cases entire craft, for decades.

“We are not talking about prosaic origins or identities,” Grusch said. “The material includes intact and partially intact vehicles.”

Grusch told the Debrief that analysis determined that this material is “of exotic origin” – meaning “non-human intelligence, whether extraterrestrial or unknown origin”.

“[This assessment is] based on the vehicle morphologies and material science testing and the possession of unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures,” Grusch said.

Grey, who, according to the Debrief, analyzes unexplained anomalous phenomena within the Nasic, confirmed Grusch’s account.

“The non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,” Grey said. “Retrievals of this kind are not limited to the United States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.”

The Debrief spoke to several of Grusch’s former colleagues, each of whom vouched for his character. Karl E Nell, a retired army colonel, said Grusch was “beyond reproach”. In a 2022 performance review seen by the Debrief, Grusch was described as “an officer with the strongest possible moral compass”.

Nick Pope, who spent the early 1990s investigating UFOs for the British Ministry of Defence (MoD), said Grusch and Grey’s account of alien materials was “very significant”.

“It’s one thing to have stories on the conspiracy blogs, but this takes it to the next level, with genuine insiders coming forward,” Pope said.

“When these people make these formal complaints, they do so on the understanding that if they’ve knowingly made a false statement, they are liable to a fairly hefty fine, and/or prison.

“People say: ‘Oh, people make up stories all the time.’ But I think it’s very different to go before Congress and go to the intelligence community inspector general and do that. Because there will be consequences if it emerges that this is not true.”

The Debrief reported that Grusch’s knowledge of non-human materials and vehicles was based on “extensive interviews with high-level intelligence officials”. He said he had reported the existence of a UFO material “recovery program” to Congress.

“Grusch said that the craft recovery operations are ongoing at various levels of activity and that he knows the specific individuals, current and former, who are involved,” the Debrief reported.

In the Debrief article, Grusch does not say he has personally seen alien vehicles, nor does he say where they may be being stored. He asked the Debrief to withhold details of retaliation by government officials due to an ongoing investigation.

He also does not specify how he believes the government retaliated against him.

In June 2021, a report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said that from 2004 to 2021 there were 144 encounters between military pilots and UAP, 80 of which were captured on multiple sensors. Only one of the 144 encounters could be explained with “high confidence” – it was a large, deflating balloon.

Following increased interest from the public and some US senators, the Pentagon established the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office, charged with tracking UAP, in July 2022.

In December last year, the office said it had received “several hundred” new reports, but no evidence so far of alien life.

The publication of Grusch and Grey’s claims comes after a panel that the US space agency Nasa charged with investigating unexplained anomalous phenomena said stigma around reporting encounters – and harassment of those who do report encounters – was hindering its work.

The navy pilots who in 2021 shared their experiences of encountering unexplained objects while conducting military flights said they, and others, had decided against reporting the encounters internally, because of fears it could hinder their careers.

“Harassment only leads to further stigmatization of the UAP field, significantly hindering the scientific progress and discouraging others to study this important subject matter,” Nasa’s science chief, Nicola Fox, said in a public meeting on 31 May.

Dr David Spergel, the independent chair of Nasa’s UAP independent study team, told the Guardian he did not know Grusch and had no knowledge of his claims.

The Department of Defense did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

In a statement, a Nasa spokesperson said: “One of Nasa’s key priorities is the search for life elsewhere in the universe, but so far, NASA has not found any credible evidence of extraterrestrial life and there is no evidence that UAPs are extraterrestrial. However, Nasa is exploring the solar system and beyond to help us answer fundamental questions, including whether we are alone in the universe.”

Pope said in his work investigating UFOs for the MoD he had seen no hard evidence of non-human craft or materials.

“Some of our cases were intriguing,” Pope said. “But we didn’t have a spaceship in a hangar anywhere. And if we did, they didn’t tell me.”

Still, Pope said, Grusch’s claims should be seen as part of an increasing flow of information – and hopefully disclosures – about UFOs.

He said: “It’s part of a wider puzzle. And I think, assuming this is all true, it takes us closer than we’ve ever been before to the very heart of all this.”

There is a follow-up article [June 9th] in the same paper questioning the source and asking where exactly is the evidence? A relevant section is posted below.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...where-is-proof

That prompted the US House of Representatives to announce an investigation into Grusch’s allegations, with a hearing on the issue expected to be announced in the next few weeks.

The hearing is set to be the latest official US response in recent years to the issue of UAPs, which has raised heated speculation among UFO believers as well as prompted national security concerns in America about the possibility of unknown craft from other states that could be penetrating US air space or operating around the globe.

But Grusch’s whistleblowing claims have grown more dramatic after he has emerged into the public eye and are now facing growing skepticism. After initially telling the Debrief website the government had possession of “intact and partially intact” alien vehicles, he has gone on to suggest the US has also encountered “malevolent” alien pilots.

Experts in UFO lore have suggested his assertions should be taken with a grain of salt, questioned the veracity of his claims and demanded proof.

“He has not presented anything like the evidence that we would expect to believe something as extraordinary as this,” said Garrett Graff, a journalist and historian whose upcoming book UFO: The Inside Story of the US Government’s Search for Alien Life Here – and Out There will be published in October.

“There’s no firsthand knowledge. He didn’t see these things himself. He didn’t touch them. He wasn’t part of the operation to retrieve them and we haven’t heard from anyone who was.”

The Debrief published the allegations from Grusch, who left the government in April after a 14-year career in US intelligence, on Monday. He told the news outlet that secretive US government agencies and defense contractors had been recovering fragments of non-human craft, and in some cases entire craft, for decades.

However, we are approaching what is sometimes referred to as the media's "silly season".